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00:15I'm Andrew, I'm 39 years old and I'm from Newcastle. Who's your favourite?
00:21Oh no, it's ours.
00:24Got to be, she's from the Hall of Feast. She's the canniest.
00:28Time to go, man.
00:31I don't think the Dragons are going to know what hit them when we hit the den.
00:34We're going to bring some drama, we're going to bring some theatre,
00:37we're going to bring the best of pro wrestling.
00:41Hopefully, we're going to put the Dragons in their back foot
00:43to the point where they get in their back pocket and give me a bit of money.
00:51Yo, yo, yo, Dragons, I want you all to make some noise.
00:58My name is Man Light Darice and I'm a wrestler at North Wrestling
01:04and I am the champion.
01:07And I'm here to offer all...
01:24I don't care about these piles of money and this investment.
01:29I'm Rory Coyle and I'm here for the biggest prize in pro wrestling,
01:34that North Wrestling Championship.
01:36So what do you say? On Dragons, Dan, let's go.
01:44All right, then let's go.
01:46Yeah, let's go, you join.
01:48You're in a shine, mate.
01:50All right, let go.
01:50Right, that right!
01:54Alright, let go!
01:58Hungry!
01:59Ah!
02:00Ah!
02:03Whoa!
02:05Yeah!
02:07Yeah, yeah, yeah!
02:10Ah, ha, ha, ha, ha.
02:14That's the Dragons!
02:17He's out!
02:24One, two, three!
02:27Yes!
02:32Well done, guys.
02:35Sorry about that.
02:38I'm Andrew, I'm the owner of North Wrestling,
02:41a modern pro wrestling company.
02:43Facing Newcastle upon Tyne.
02:46I'm here to ask you for £60,000 of investment
02:49for 25% of my business.
02:51So I fell in love with wrestling when I was a kid.
02:54I used to sit on the couch with my dad
02:55and we used to watch it on a Saturday morning.
02:57As a teen, I used to go to live wrestling shows.
03:00And as an adult, I'd take my kids to wrestling shows too.
03:03So eight years ago, I started North Wrestling.
03:07North Wrestling! North Wrestling! North Wrestling!
03:11I used everything that I had learned on the way as a fan
03:14to start that company.
03:15The vision for North Wrestling is the ultimate variety show.
03:20I want to put a show on that has the biggest superheroes
03:23against the hardest supervillains, David versus Goliath.
03:26I want to create a community around what we've done.
03:29I want the audience to feel like me and my dad felt
03:32when we watched wrestling on a Saturday morning.
03:35I knew that we had done this with our biggest show last year
03:38with 700 people in an arena in Newcastle.
03:41But we have to take it to a wider audience.
03:43I'm asking for your investment in the magic that is pro wrestling.
03:52An impactful pitch from wrestling impresario Andrew Bowers.
03:57Guys, thank you very much. That was really entertaining.
04:00Thank you. Well done.
04:02Andrew is seeking £60,000 in return for a 25% share in his company.
04:09We're friends again.
04:11An all-action demo might have floored the dragons,
04:15but will the business pack a similar punch?
04:22Andrew, that was quite a performance.
04:25Yeah.
04:27So, if I'm to invest in your business,
04:30describe to me what is your business?
04:33What am I investing in?
04:35We're a ticket selling business, first and foremost.
04:37My job is to sell tickets.
04:38OK.
04:39But in the modern world, we also have, you know,
04:41there's other forms of revenue.
04:43So, merchandising is a classic one.
04:46But also, it's the kind of residual online video stuff that we do.
04:50So, we try and tell a lot of stories on social media.
04:53And with that comes many other revenue.
04:54OK.
04:55So, give me an example.
04:57Your next big fight night.
04:59How many people do you expect on that night?
05:02So, we estimate 700 people getting through the door.
05:05And how much ahead?
05:06So, that would be, we tier the prices.
05:09So, the entry point is £28.
05:11So, we're averaging about £35 on average.
05:14Right.
05:14We are looking then to sell 700 of them.
05:17So, if you can do the quick math on that, I guess.
05:19£21,000?
05:20Yeah.
05:21So, to run a show probably cost us somewhere around £15,000 and £16,000 at the moment.
05:27So, it's quite a low margin.
05:29Yeah, low margins to a certain extent.
05:30Low margin.
05:32So, give us the last few years of revenue, gross profit and net profit.
05:36So, last year we made £43,000 worth of revenue.
05:39Gross profit was £17,000 with a net of £2,000.
05:44Is that after paying yourself?
05:46No.
05:47Because you can't be paying yourself at £17,000.
05:48No.
05:50I'm not paying myself at the minute.
05:51So, how are you living?
05:52So, I'm a graphic designer.
05:54I'm a creative.
05:55You've got a side hustle.
05:56Oh, this is a side hustle.
05:57I work out.
05:58Yeah, yeah.
05:59This is probably the side hustle that is becoming the main thing.
06:02But I work in wrestling as well.
06:03I work as a consultant for another wrestling company as well.
06:06So, I get paid for that.
06:07Yeah.
06:08I'm a creative hustler.
06:11Andrew.
06:12Hi.
06:13Hi, Peter.
06:15Great impact.
06:18Really good.
06:20In essence, it is what it says on the tin really.
06:24And you said it.
06:25It's a ticket selling event business.
06:27Yeah.
06:28If I compare this to other similar events, doesn't your business need a sort of a hero name that will
06:38bring an audience?
06:39So, for example, we all know The Rock.
06:41Yeah.
06:42I couldn't even tell you what the event is or what he's part of.
06:46But I could tell you that if The Rock is going and he's turning up, he's going to sell tickets.
06:51Is that not what you really need to do to bring the following?
06:56Absolutely.
06:57I think breaking into the mainstream is bringing something that non-wrestling fans can recognise and go,
07:03right, who's this?
07:04Or something that surpasses what pro wrestling is.
07:07Yeah.
07:07I think...
07:08So, what's your plan there?
07:10Who's the most famous wrestler in the UK?
07:12So, Joe Hendry is a big name in the UK.
07:15He's contracted over to a big company in America, but he performs over here as well.
07:20See, the issue with pro wrestling in Britain is we have, for pound for pound, we create some amazing talent,
07:27but they have to leave the British Isles to then go on and be a star.
07:31And what is the biggest, what's the largest event in the UK for wrestling?
07:35So, the largest event isn't run by a British company, I would say.
07:39I think British companies are all on the same level at the moment, of which we're probably up there with
07:44700, 800 people.
07:46The largest events, though, are with WWE or AEW.
07:49They bring their show to town, they sell out all the way through wherever they go.
07:54But then when you look at that scale, though, when you say that you're up there with those players and
07:58you're generating 17k gross profit, I think that sort of says the issue, doesn't it?
08:02Yeah.
08:02The scale or the opportunity potentially isn't there?
08:07Possibly, but I think when you break into a mainstream market and you get more people in, the actual costs
08:11of running a show, they're relatively negligible to what revenue you can bring in from a wider audience.
08:22Andrew, hi.
08:23Hi.
08:23I might be wrong, but I think I might be the only dragon who's actually ever put on wrestling matches.
08:29Have you actually?
08:30I think that was a pretty safe...
08:32Pretty safe, yes, yeah.
08:34Yeah.
08:34So, in my holiday parks...
08:37Of course.
08:38..we used to put on wrestling matches every week for many, many years.
08:45But they slowly dwindled.
08:48Less and less attendance.
08:50And actually, at one point, we just thought this is old...
08:53Brace yourself for these words.
08:55This is old-fashioned.
08:56Yeah, absolutely.
08:57This is not a thing of the future and it's not attracting people.
09:01So, we're talking 20 years ago.
09:04So, what's actually happened to the market?
09:06Are there more people going to see wrestling, less people going to see wrestling?
09:09There's loads more people going to see wrestling now than there was back then.
09:12And the audience has changed as to who it was.
09:14I think if you look at buying habits as well, people are buying experiences rather than just going out on
09:19an ad hoc night out.
09:21But the evidence says differently because the evidence says, and these are your words, our wrestlers are leaving these aisles
09:28to go and wrestle in the US.
09:31Yeah.
09:32That tells me there's an issue with the audience size in the UK.
09:41That's supplementing what they do in Britain.
09:43The reason that they go to the US is because wrestlers want to get signed by the WWE or AEW
09:48over there because they're the only alternative to actually giving you a career as a wrestler.
09:51We don't have that here.
09:54What you're not asking yourself, Andrew, is why?
10:00Demand.
10:03Stephen has got the answer.
10:04Yeah, of course, it's economics.
10:06Why?
10:07It is economic.
10:09If there were enough people here who were that interested in what you...
10:13There's loads of them.
10:14You know, you get thousands of people.
10:16We're talking a population of 65 million.
10:19There are not enough of those people to actually support the industry to the level at which it can be
10:25supported in foreign territories.
10:27I mean, that's just how economics works.
10:32No?
10:33Well, yeah, maybe, I think.
10:35But, you know, you see the audiences that are watching wrestling over here.
10:39They are huge.
10:40It's about tapping that and giving them an alternative to American wrestling.
10:45Andrew, when I was young, I spent all my childhood watching wrestling.
10:50And then at some point when it came off TV, that demand for wrestling and that sort of obsession with
10:55it, me and my brothers, switched over to other things like boxing.
10:59And the UFC rose out of nowhere.
11:00British boxing's at an all-time high.
11:02Now influencer boxing is selling out stadiums up and down the country.
11:07And wrestling seems to have vanished.
11:09And now it's only left at WrestleMania, which is like once a year when my timeline again talks about wrestling
11:14for one day.
11:15And then after WrestleMania, it's gone again.
11:18So when I look at this business, I go, actually, to win here, we have to cultivate broad cultural demand
11:25in wrestling again.
11:29And honestly, to win in that race, you'd need tens of millions of dollars potentially.
11:33So with the 60K here, I think we could accelerate this business.
11:40But not to a point where I'd make a return as an investor.
11:43So I'm going to say that I'm out.
11:49Andrew.
11:51Hi, Peter.
11:53I think this is a great business for you.
11:55And I hope it continues.
11:58But as an investment, there's a ceiling to the opportunity here.
12:00And I can't see how I could extract any money out of it.
12:03So for that reason, I'm out.
12:05But thanks for coming in.
12:09Andrew.
12:10Yes.
12:29Andrew, from what I saw on that screen there, you're putting on a very good product.
12:33Yeah.
12:34That isn't the problem.
12:36In fact, the fact you're putting on a good product has kind of worried me a bit.
12:41OK.
12:41Because you are putting on a good product.
12:44Yeah.
12:44And it hasn't whooshed off.
12:46It's a business for you.
12:49It's a business of passion and love and community.
12:54But it's not an investment for me.
12:58I mean, I never thought I'd say these words.
13:00I think I've left my wrestling days behind.
13:08But you know where I'm going.
13:10I'm afraid I won't be investing.
13:12I'm out.
13:13Thank you very much.
13:17So that just leaves the logo, lass.
13:19Howe.
13:20Howe.
13:21What does that mean?
13:23I don't know if anyone's ever actually defined what that means.
13:26There's a general understanding of it.
13:27Just a general howe.
13:28Just a good word.
13:29Howe.
13:30Howe.
13:31Anyway.
13:32Howe.
13:33Howe.
13:36I got excited when you came in.
13:37I loved the performance.
13:39I loved the presentation of it.
13:41When you were talking, I'm thinking, oh, this is brilliant.
13:45But when you describe the business opportunity,
13:48it's not exciting, really.
13:51So I'm going to politely decline the offer and say all the best,
13:55but I'm out.
13:57Thank you very much.
13:58Thank you very much.
13:59Good luck, Andrew.
13:59Thank you very much.
14:00Follow your passion.
14:00Thank you for the opportunity.
14:03A high octane arrival, but much lower key departure.
14:09Unlike his wrestlers, Andrew couldn't twist any arms
14:15and must leave the den without a deal.
14:18I feel disappointed we didn't get investment,
14:21but the dragons were real fun to talk to.
14:23And I've taken a lot away from it.
14:26There's a bit of excitement for the den.
14:28I enjoyed that.
14:29Do you know what's quite nice, though?
14:30It's quite nice to see a fight from the contestant perspective
14:33in the den rather than the dragons.
14:35I don't know.
14:36I learnt some moves there.
14:37Oh.
14:37It's coming.
14:38The elbow.
14:53Here we go.
14:55My name's Fiona Rucci and I'm from near Stirling in Scotland.
15:00I just have to remember not to embarrass my kids.
15:05I've always had a passion for really clean ingredients
15:09in really good skin care.
15:11And I wanted to apply my knowledge and skills
15:13to skin that had been tattooed.
15:18Tattoos.
15:19I am tattooed from just below there.
15:23My favourite tattoo is the one in your lower back.
15:25The kondalini snake.
15:26Yeah, that one.
15:29I don't have any tattoos.
15:31However, if today goes well, I'll get a dragon.
15:47Hello and thank you very much for having me here.
15:50My name is Fiona Ritchie and I'm here to ask for £60,000
15:55for 15% in my award-winning tattoo aftercare product.
16:00The ink balm is a stick of natural vegan oils and butters
16:06that could help to continue the life of your tattoo
16:09and keep the colours bright and the lines defined.
16:12But the ink balm is actually more than just a beautiful
16:15nourishing skin care product.
16:17It's a celebration of tattoo artistry.
16:20We work with tattoo artists and we encourage them
16:23to create their own bespoke labelling.
16:25They can sell it through their own studios,
16:28which increases their own revenue.
16:30And it also helps them to promote good quality,
16:33long-term care of the artwork.
16:35In the 18 months that we've been selling the products,
16:39we've sold over three and a half thousand sticks
16:41and raised over £20,000 of turnover.
16:45We want to take the brand into two different markets.
16:48The first market is the tattoo studios.
16:50At the moment we're working with 10 studios in the UK and overseas.
16:55The other market I would like to take the brand into is the gifting market.
17:00Everyone knows someone with a tattoo.
17:02And I want this to be the go-to and the on-the-go product for your tattooed skin.
17:07At the moment we're working with the Superdrug website, the National Galleries of Scotland.
17:11And we're in a conversation with WH Smith Retail about trying the range out in one of their airport outlets.
17:19If you'd like to go under your chairs, there is a discovery box for you.
17:25A range of natural skin care products, specifically targeted at those with tattoos.
17:31Thank you very much.
17:34Is the offering from Fiona Ritchie.
17:37You have an unfragranced tattoo balm.
17:40You also have a fragrance balm.
17:42And I've asked five tattoo artists to each create you an individual dragon tattoo.
17:48So the dragon tattoo on the ink balm stick is specifically for you.
17:54Fiona is seeking £60,000.
17:57Beautiful.
17:58In return for 15% of her business.
18:02Smells lovely as well. I can smell it.
18:04Can I smell it? Yes, don't smell it.
18:07That's the fragrant Stephen that smells.
18:12Stephen Bartlett might be pleasant on the nose,
18:15but Fiona has her eyes firmly fixed on a deal.
18:19So will her products for tattoos enthuse or bemuse?
18:27Right, Fiona, I'm going to ask questions.
18:30Now, this is not... Yes, please do.
18:32My sister's got tattoos, actually.
18:34My younger sister, she's just had a tattoo done.
18:38Yes. A tiny little tattoo on her wrist.
18:40So I've been watching, you know, she goes slightly red when it first started.
18:44She's going through the whole care piece.
18:47But I don't pretend that I really know this market.
18:50So how big is the market?
18:52Well, they say that 40% of millennials and Gen Z have a tattoo.
18:58And very few people have only one tattoo.
19:00Once you start, it's very difficult to stop.
19:03So the market is enormous.
19:04In the UK, there are 3,000 studios and 10,000 tattoo artists.
19:11And it's the most regularly open shop in the UK at the moment,
19:16just on the high street. So it's huge.
19:19And this lovely thing.
19:20Yes.
19:21How much would this cost?
19:22So the Discovery Box retails at £38.50.
19:25And can I buy them individually? I guess I can.
19:28Yeah.
19:28So the ink balms themselves sell individually at £12.50 each.
19:32They go to trade at £5.20 ex fat.
19:36And they can multiply that at 2.4.
19:38And I make them for £3.30.
19:41And how does that work?
19:43So I can see how that works in tattoo studios.
19:46Yes.
19:46But you're talking to some big retailers.
19:48Yes.
19:48So what's the brand when you go into big retailers?
19:52Because you're not going to be able to change the label forever.
19:54No, no.
19:54So what we've done is the brand will always be consistently the ink balm.
19:58And if you have a look at the labels,
19:59the space for the different tattoo artists' artwork
20:03is the same space for every label.
20:05So we just swap in the different artwork.
20:08We number them as well.
20:09How does that work in retail?
20:12In big retail, we have five designs.
20:14They are here somewhere.
20:15And my last question for the moment,
20:18because I expect there'll be more.
20:19Yes.
20:19As you sound like you're very familiar with retail,
20:22because you're talking about, you know, mark-ups,
20:25and you kind of use a language that tells me
20:27you have been there and done that.
20:29Yes.
20:29So what's your background?
20:31Well, I started my career as an occupational therapist
20:34in the health service, and then I had my two children.
20:38And I found myself solo parenting them when they were two and three.
20:41And I wanted to work, but I wanted to be there for them permanently.
20:45So I started making handmade natural skincare back then.
20:49So basically I've run a business from then until now
20:53within the Scottish giftware market.
20:56And that's separate from this completely?
20:57It's entirely separate.
20:59It's very different.
21:00And what's the turnover of that?
21:01The turnover of that's about £180,000.
21:04Right, okay.
21:05Fiona?
21:05Yes.
21:06I think the most pressing question for me as an investor here is,
21:10if you've run that other business for a while.
21:12Yes.
21:13And it's doing £180,000 income.
21:15Yes.
21:15How can you make a case to me that this business will be different?
21:20The business I've run so far has been,
21:23and I don't like the term, kind of lifestyle.
21:24It's enabled me to raise my children.
21:27And the thing about this is, this is for me now.
21:29You know, they have flown the nest, and I'm filling my nest with tattooed people.
21:35Which is wonderful, I have to say.
21:37But this is a very defined market, I think, and it's a burgeoning market.
21:42So I think the potential for this business is enormous.
21:46So I have a three-year plan for the end of three years to have a turnover of £488,000.
21:52So let's break down those numbers then.
21:54So you said in the last 18 months you've done £20,000?
21:56Yes.
21:57In the last 12 months, how much of that revenue has showed up?
22:00In the last 12 months, probably half of that.
22:03We've done £10,000 in the last year.
22:05Yes.
22:05So this year, the next 12 months, what's the revenue?
22:08I would like to have a revenue of £125,000.
22:11Okay. And where's that going to come from?
22:15The business I've run so far has always been done organically and kind of bootstrap.
22:19I've never asked for funding or financing before.
22:22And I would like to, this is why I'm here, is to actually run a business with funds behind me
22:29to be able to bring in experts in, you know, in marketing, in, you know, sales,
22:35to help me set up the manufacturing, to be able to absolutely accelerate forward.
22:40Fiona.
22:41Yes.
22:42And you see you're very passionate about this.
22:44Yes.
22:44I think the difficulty for me, you've come in here with a £20,000 turnover.
22:52Yes.
22:53And you're very niche in respect of focusing on the artists, which I think is great.
22:59Don't get me wrong.
23:00That's my unique selling point, I think, is the artwork.
23:03Right. But then I say to myself, how big can this business really get?
23:09Yeah.
23:09I also know that there is more and more people who are willing to have tattoos.
23:15And the question really is, is your product must have tattoo care?
23:20And the moment you get to that, it's a product you could pick up in boots or whatever.
23:27Or you're aiming in a different end with the artists.
23:32And I'm trying to work out, is the potential A with the artists?
23:36Yes.
23:36Or is the potential to say, look, whoever's got a tattoo needs this to look after their tattoo.
23:43Yeah.
23:43Which becomes a commodity.
23:44Yes.
23:45And I just think that the artistic front might be holding back the business.
23:49Yeah.
23:50What I wanted to create is a commodity that has shelf appeal.
23:53That makes you go, ooh, I would really like that.
23:55And by using tattoo art, you're drawn to it.
23:59No, but I don't think it's that.
24:00I personally think, this is my own view.
24:03Yes.
24:04The tattoo art is great, artistic.
24:06Yes.
24:07But you've got to put that aside and say, whoever's got a tattoo needs this.
24:11Once you start selling the art, they've got two things to worry about.
24:15Yeah.
24:15The consumer needs to know one thing.
24:17Yes.
24:17I've got a tattoo.
24:18I want to protect my tattoo.
24:20That's for me.
24:21Yes.
24:21Which, I have to say, is what the product is for.
24:23But you're not selling it that way.
24:25Your pitch is very much based around the artist, the studio.
24:29Yes.
24:30And that's one channel.
24:31I'm not saying you haven't got that channel.
24:33Totally, yes.
24:33But your main channel is mainstream.
24:35Yes.
24:36How many people in the country have got tattoos?
24:38A third.
24:38A third of people.
24:40A third of the popular?
24:40Yeah, yeah.
24:41Well, that's your pitch.
24:42Absolutely.
24:43It's huge.
24:44But all this...
24:45But then what people tend not to do is look after them once I've got them and they're healed.
24:50Fiona, Fiona.
24:51Sorry.
24:51Fiona, you're 100% right.
24:53Yes.
24:53Just hit it.
24:54Yes.
24:55You need them all to have one of these.
24:57Yeah.
24:58Because it's a must-have for tattoos.
25:00Yeah, absolutely.
25:01And that's what I wanted to hear.
25:03Yeah, they do.
25:04Rather than, I want to work with the artists, I want to put...
25:07That, to me, is airy-fairy.
25:09In real business, you've got to have a product that you can say, I am the number one tattoo ointment
25:16in the market.
25:17Yeah.
25:17And that's what you've got to be.
25:19But at the moment, you've not convinced me that my investment, I'm going to get a return on it.
25:25Right.
25:25Okay, okay.
25:26And for that reason, I'm out.
25:31Fiona, just a question.
25:32Yes.
25:32Something you said to Tuka there.
25:33You said the unique selling point of this business is the artwork.
25:37Yes.
25:38Really, like, most of the growth of any business, at its heart, comes from its unique selling point.
25:43Yes.
25:44And if you're telling me that that is the artwork, then I go, you have no unique selling point.
25:49No.
25:49Okay.
25:50Because if I'm a rival brand, if I wanted to completely destroy your moat around your castle, all I've got
25:54to do is put some of that artwork on there.
25:57Yes.
25:57So, I'm going to say that I'm out, but I wish you the very best.
25:59Well, thank you.
26:00Thank you so much for considering it.
26:02So, listen, I disagree with Tuka.
26:04I think it is the whole artist piece that makes you different because you have got so many alternatives.
26:13So, I think that you're going to do very well with tattoo artists and the actual tattoo studios.
26:19Yes.
26:20Because they are going to love that they're going to be able to represent their creativity on that product.
26:25Yes.
26:27However, I don't see the massive piece that you see.
26:32Yes.
26:33So, I'm afraid I'm going to say those words.
26:35I'm out.
26:36That's all right.
26:37Thank you very much.
26:40Fiona, I can see why it's attractive for you to have an investor in the business.
26:45Yes.
26:45I've got to sit and look, is it attractive for me as an investor to have you within my portfolio?
26:50What does that bring?
26:51Yeah.
26:52How does that deliver for me?
26:53Yeah.
26:53And I think that is the bit that I'm struggling with.
26:55Right.
26:55Is it's not an attractive investment proposition from the standpoint of what I give versus what I can make.
27:02Absolutely.
27:03So, I'm really sorry to say it for you all right, but I'm out.
27:07Yeah.
27:09Fiona.
27:10Yes.
27:10Um, congratulations on being able to, let's say pivot and create something and bring up two kids on your own.
27:19That's, that's, you've already done, you've already got the tick in the box there.
27:24And you're clearly going to need help here and support and guidance, exactly as you said.
27:29And sometimes that's exactly why investors come in.
27:32They do provide that for you.
27:34I don't think this is particularly niche either.
27:37So it's an interesting one because like you say, the market is huge.
27:41Yes.
27:41Um, but it's specifically going to the product that you've created.
27:46You could quite easily go to all the tattoo studios and get the product listed in there.
27:51And I'm sure you're tenacious enough to go and do that yourself.
27:54Yeah.
27:54And then once you've got 3,000 tattoo studios and you're going to get the traction then with the other
28:02players,
28:04you've, you've really starting to calculate the market.
28:06So I think you've got a real chance there of doing this.
28:09But to try and look at this from my perspective and get excited about it,
28:13is, is, is a little bit tough being honest with you.
28:16Yeah, yeah, fair enough.
28:17So I'm going to say that I'm not going to invest and I'm out.
28:20And I say good luck to you.
28:21Thank you very much.
28:22Pleasure meeting you. Thank you.
28:24No deal for Fiona.
28:27I won't need to get a dragon tattoo now.
28:29Because if I got a dragon, I'll get your tattoo.
28:33But while she may have drawn a blank in the den.
28:37Thank you very much Fiona.
28:38Good to meet you Fiona.
28:39The tattoo care entrepreneur doesn't seem too needled.
28:47I do understand why they didn't invest because it, it does look like a very small turnover so far.
28:55But it's upwards and onwards for the brand and I'm still going to go on that journey.
29:18Hi, my name is Ruday El-Sai and I live in London.
29:21I never expected to be developing an edtech gaming studio, but here I am looking for funding now.
29:31Oh, this looks good.
29:33Gaming.
29:34Brain spark.
29:35Brain spark.
29:35So again to test your brain.
29:37Who's going to do it?
29:38Tuka?
29:39I need to test my brain.
29:41Recharge.
29:43I could have easily have been a girl left in the village in Pakistan, which is where my parents came
29:48from.
29:49If they hadn't migrated to the UK and really focused on us getting an education, I don't think I'd be
29:57here today.
29:57And I just feel that if I have certain opportunities, I have to really leverage those for the greater good.
30:04That's something that's really important to me.
30:10Hello dragons.
30:11My name is Ruday El-Sai.
30:13I'm the founder of Brain Spark Games.
30:16I'm looking for £10,000 for 1% equity.
30:19I started the company because I literally couldn't get my kids to stop gaming.
30:23I don't know if any of you have had this problem.
30:25But when I was helping my son with his 11 plus exams a few years ago,
30:30it occurred to me that if millions of children globally are playing mobile games,
30:35then why are we not disseminating educational content through games?
30:38We've condensed 12 weeks of term time learning into just a few hours of fun, fast gameplay.
30:45Our games are designed for girls and boys to be played as part of a mainstream lesson plan,
30:50an after school activity or on the go if you're travelling or something like that.
30:53We play tested our games with over 1800 children, parents and teachers and developed a really strong product market fit.
31:01And I hope that you will consider joining us on that journey.
31:05So if I could ask one of the dragons to have a demo, maybe with our game.
31:10Tuka, go on.
31:12Tuka, go on.
31:12Go on. Come on. Come on. It'll be fun.
31:14They're setting me up here. I know what they're doing.
31:18A digital platform which aims to channel children's passion for gaming into a love of learning is the offering from
31:25Redar El Sai.
31:26If you just scroll through the carousel, that gives you a sense of all the different subjects, physics, math, languages.
31:35So these are a lot of the games that are currently in development.
31:38So what we've done with the climate game is we've researched 14 core subjects that explain to children the causes
31:46of climate change.
31:46So if we're going to industrialisation.
31:49Clean out.
31:50Yep.
31:51Redar is seeking £10,000 in exchange for 1% of her business.
31:57So we always have exploration mode.
31:59I've never done this.
32:00And then you can click to the portal.
32:01Right.
32:02And now you've got to find your way to the portal to build a sustainable city.
32:06So if you use the navigation button here, you can explore.
32:09So I probably don't want to walk around the middle.
32:13Not on the road.
32:14On the path too.
32:15Maybe on the pavement.
32:15Still want to get run over.
32:16He's lost already.
32:18Touka Suleiman may be struggling to get his bearings.
32:22I give up.
32:23You did really well.
32:24But will this combination of technology and teaching have the dragons heading straight for their pockets?
32:32Stephen Bartlett is first to find out more.
32:37Redar, really interesting.
32:38What's your professional background?
32:40So I'm a qualified barrister.
32:42I've had a number of businesses in the creative industries.
32:45And prior to starting this three, four years ago, I worked as a portfolio manager in culture,
32:51heritage, tech and education-led regeneration with government in the UK and the Middle East.
32:56Are you focused on this business now or are you doing something else?
32:59I mean, I resigned from a very well-paid job that I absolutely loved in August 21,
33:04because I realised that I either had to scale and grow this and commit full-time or stop.
33:10So I've been full-time since.
33:12So funding-wise, how have you funded this business?
33:15So I've put in over £470,000 of my own money for my salary and my savings.
33:21And are you the only investor in the business?
33:22So actually, we've just closed around. We've just raised £1.4 million.
33:27We've raised £700,000 through what I call Super Angels, predominantly from the games industry.
33:33And then we secured our seventh Innovate UK grant for £700,000.
33:37So they match-funded the investment.
33:40How are you marketing this? Because it sounds like this is for schools.
33:43By going into schools and doing play testing, by going into public spaces,
33:48by doing a bit of social media marketing.
33:50Okay. I have a question about the business model, which is how you intend to make money,
33:55because it's pretty difficult to make money from schools.
33:59Yeah, it is. So that's why we're at the intersection of gaming and education.
34:02So our business model ensures that the games are free for children, the end beneficiary.
34:07But we charge £20 per year for a turbo GCSE game.
34:13Are you charging £20 a year too?
34:15The client will be the parent for the GCSEs,
34:19because where they buy revision textbooks, exam questions, that sort of thing,
34:23this is a supplemental tool.
34:25And then we've just finished building our CreatorSpark,
34:29which was funded by £350,000 Innovate Smart grant.
34:33And the USP around that is that it allows educators to go in
34:38and track how well a player is doing.
34:41So that subscription is being sold to schools.
34:44Do you know what my concern is? My concern is there's been a lot of grants,
34:46but is there any evidence of a business model here?
34:50Yeah, I think it's a very valid concern.
34:52We're pre-revenue, and we have been in two years of very deep R&D,
34:57and we now need to pivot and really start selling our subscriptions.
35:01And with the games industry,
35:03it is slightly different in that the production cycle does take longer,
35:07but when you release, it can be explosive.
35:12So this is a different business model.
35:14A really dear friend of mine heads up one of the gaming teams in Sony,
35:19and she describes this,
35:21we're just developing, developing, developing, developing,
35:23and who knows why suddenly one of those games absolutely blows up
35:27and the others just never see the light of day.
35:31So at what point do you think this is going to go live?
35:34So we're working on the bundle of five games on the core platform by winter,
35:39but we are also releasing the games separately as standalone subjects.
35:43So we will release Climate Spark just as a single standalone app in the App Store,
35:49but it will be exactly the same content as will be on the whole platform as well.
35:53Okay, I'm glad I'm unpicking this because this is becoming a little bit clearer.
35:56So over here, you've got the big platform with a load of topics on it,
35:59and that you're going to sell into education?
36:03Yeah, primarily local authorities and schools and teachers,
36:07and the kids will be beneficial.
36:08Then over here, you've got lots of individual topics that are going to be on the App Store,
36:13and if you're a parent and you want your child to get familiar with climate change,
36:18you're going to download, download.
36:19Have I got it? You absolutely have.
36:21Okay, that's it. Thank you.
36:24Rita, hi.
36:26Do you know my background in this market?
36:28I do.
36:29Well, to a degree, yeah.
36:31I just want to explain it.
36:33I've got quite a huge level of humility,
36:36but I'm explaining it because I think you need to know.
36:38The irony of saying I've got a huge level of humility, that's quite ironic.
36:42And that's why also I'm putting it out there,
36:44because there's no other dragon that has the background in this sector than me.
36:48In fact, I was the lead advisor in government about this subject.
36:52I love that.
36:52And I created Britain's first enterprise entrepreneurship qualification as well.
36:57I love that.
36:57Teaching young people enterprise and education.
37:01The software that we use, that we've developed, I could class it as a game because they do go into
37:08certain elements of learning.
37:11It's all driven by technology, but I do this through a charity.
37:14And we've struggled to get schools to pay.
37:18We've struggled to get even, would you believe, parents to pay.
37:22And we've ended up paying because we think it's important.
37:27Yeah, I mean, that's why I've just gone on with it and done it myself.
37:30And that's why I'm so, I so admire you.
37:33I really do.
37:34I think you're a leading light in this.
37:36Thank you very much.
37:37But the only way that this can happen is in an embedment in a national curriculum.
37:42But I can tell you, I've been doing this since 2009 and I have been relentless.
37:48And I have still not succeeded in embedding it in the national curriculum.
37:52And I'm talking about enterprise and entrepreneurship, by the way.
37:56And I wouldn't say give up, but I think it's, it's really tough.
38:00So for that reason, I'm out.
38:02Okay.
38:05So I have a quite an interesting background in gaming.
38:11In fact, I actually think my business was built on the success of us launching a game.
38:16And we went on to do another game, which didn't do as well, to Deborah's point, that it is hit
38:20and miss.
38:20Yeah.
38:21And it's hard to know because the mechanics of that game were identical.
38:26And as an investment, there's something missing.
38:29And it is that commercialization.
38:32There's a possibility, but that is heavily based on fortune and hitting Zeitgeist.
38:39There's just too many question marks in my head for how we, how we get there.
38:42But I'm going to say that I'm out, but I wish you the best.
38:44Thank you very much.
38:45I appreciate that.
38:49So, um, you're good.
38:55And you're doing an important thing.
39:00Which bits of that sound like something that I wouldn't want to be involved in?
39:05So I'm involved with a business that sells into 6,000 schools already.
39:10And I know very well the founder of Mumsnet, who gives you a great network in terms of reaching out.
39:17Yeah.
39:17And I know this would be right up her straight.
39:19Yeah.
39:19Why wouldn't it be?
39:20You know, she wants to do good things.
39:25So, yes, I'm going to offer you, I'm going to offer you all of the money.
39:28I'm going to offer you the 10,000 pounds for the ask.
39:32So for 1% of the business.
39:35Thank you, Deborah.
39:41I'll tell you what I think, Rida.
39:42OK.
39:42I think you've got something here.
39:45Because I am absolutely in that space you talk about.
39:47My kids are 7 and 10.
39:49And I can understand, as a parent, why I would be encouraging them to use this.
39:54And actually, I think your chance of success is far greater if you do have a dragon on board.
40:00Yeah.
40:01Because you do need a lot of help with that commercialisation.
40:03Correct.
40:03Yeah.
40:04But you've got real vision and purpose.
40:06And I have that shared vision and purpose that you do.
40:09So I'm going to make you an offer.
40:10For the 10,000 pounds you've offered, for the 1%, I'll join you on this journey.
40:20Look, you're very credible.
40:23You've put up 470,000 of your own money.
40:27You've given up a very lucrative job.
40:30And I respect you for that.
40:34And I think, I'm sure you've had sleepless nights.
40:37I have.
40:40Look, I do admire you and I respect you a lot.
40:43Thank you very much.
40:43But I can't do it for 1%.
40:46What I can do is talk about giving you some office space for six months.
40:54You'd be sitting right next to my office.
40:57So on a constant input basis, bouncing off ideas.
41:03So I would give you the whole 10,000, but I want 5%.
41:07Okay.
41:08And for that, I think I would give you more time than I would normally give anybody else.
41:15Okay.
41:185%.
41:19So I just really want to thank you all for your feedback.
41:22And I really would love to have all three of the dragons, if that's at all possible.
41:28And I wonder if there's any way that you would consider the 1% rather than the 5% for
41:36the 10,000 pounds.
41:38Because I do feel it's a really fair offer.
41:41It is a fair offer.
41:43If I'm going to be a semi-passive investor, and you've got two great offers here.
41:49Yeah.
41:50And I'm not saying, and would you expect they can both deliver?
41:54You know, but you won't see them every day.
41:56It's a slight difference.
41:58That's what I'm offering.
42:04So I'd really like to accept both offers.
42:09If you would consider both investing 10,000 each and taking 1% each.
42:15Absolutely.
42:16If Tuca would consider doing the same.
42:29Why not?
42:30Go on.
42:31Amazing.
42:32Amazing.
42:33Well done.
42:33Wow.
42:34Three dragons.
42:35Brilliant.
42:36A right result for Rida.
42:39Well done.
42:40Well done.
42:40Well done.
42:41Congrats.
42:42Who departs with 30,000 pounds.
42:45How to slay a dragon?
42:47Oh three.
42:48And the backing of a trio of dragons.
42:52One of whom was convinced into breaking his number one rule in the den.
42:59I couldn't say no.
43:00You couldn't say no.
43:01That's your new slogan.
43:02I do get out of bed for 1%.
43:05She's broken the curse.
43:06But you know something?
43:07She's put a lot of her own money into this.
43:10And I admire what she's doing.
43:13I'm feeling relieved and over the moon.
43:17I did not expect this result at all.
43:20But I'm really, really excited to see how quickly we can scale and grow now.
43:43It's interesting you have to look at mirrors.
43:47Hi, I'm Rebecca.
43:48Hi, I'm Sophie.
43:50We are former flatmates, university friends and business partners from London.
43:54I'm my contestant.
43:55Here we go.
43:56Okay.
43:56Sophie and I flat shared for years to get an opportunity to get this bibliography.
43:59and with other friends and having seen when sometimes it goes wrong we wanted
44:04to find a better way for people to flat share but Rebecca and Sophie aren't just
44:10business partners they're also besties it's actually really really helpful
44:18because it means that the first step before we might disagree with something
44:23it's always kindness and forgiveness rather than wanting to jump in I feel
44:30very very lucky to do the one thing I feel most passionate about with someone I love
44:44hi I'm Rebecca I'm Sophie and together we bring you mates place a revolutionary app
44:52that's changing the private rental market now young people today have been termed
44:57generation rent they've been priced out of the property market and they're living in rented
45:01often shared rented accommodation for longer than ever before but flat sharing comes with
45:06its own set of problems there aren't enough properties on the market there are fraudulent
45:11listings and potentially worst of all there's nightmare flatmates a few years ago I was flat
45:17sharing like many others do I found my flatmate online unfortunately after a few months of not
45:23paying rent he disappeared in the night with a load of my belongings it turns out he'd lied about where
45:29he worked and changed his contact details and with no friends in common he was untraceable so on the
45:36realization that I wanted the safety and trust that comes from living with friends or friends of
45:43friends rather than complete strangers mates place was born it's an app on which anyone can list their
45:51properties or search for available rooms and through their phone contacts it shows them if they have
45:58mutual friends in common with a potential housemate and that way their mates do the vetting for them such
46:05as will we get on will they pay the rent on time are they trustworthy since we launched the app
46:11three
46:12years ago we've now passed a hundred thousand downloads we have between 700 and 900 rooms live
46:17at any given time and although most of them are concentrated in London at the moment we have
46:22presence in 14 major cities in the UK now the app is free for anyone to download and use but
46:28in
46:28January we launched a paid version that gives users access to premium features and we have big plans for
46:33a mate's place so we are looking for a hundred thousand pounds for five percent of the business
46:37which will allow us to build out new features and rapidly scale up marketing to reach new customers
46:42thank you and we welcome any questions
46:47a smartphone app which gives users the peace of mind that comes from living with mutual acquaintances
46:53is the eureka moment of Rebecca Mool and Sophie Emler the pair are seeking one hundred thousand pounds
47:01in return for five percent of their business Debra Meaden is first to explore the proposition in more depth
47:12Rebecca Sophie hi um can I I'm not completely sure I understand your model I know what you're doing I'm
47:23just
47:23trying to work out the piece that says that you're actually searching through people's contacts to find
47:31somebody they know so can you explain that bit to me how does that work so when you sign up
47:38on the app
47:39we ask for your name your phone number email address and password standard create an account then when you
47:45go into the app it'll ask permission to see your contacts so if one of your friends in your phone
47:50book is
47:50already a user on the app you'll be they'll be added as a friend within the app and that is
47:54then termed a
47:55first-degree connection and then their friends in the app a second-degree connection and we go up
48:00to third because we feel that's about as far as a sort of social network really extends and why does
48:05that give me security so you are able to trace so you can if you look for a room you
48:11can define which
48:12level of connection you're comfortable with so first level would tell you exactly who the friend is
48:17second you can click and see which friends you have in common third we don't give exactly the
48:23details but there's some comfort in knowing they're within your social network Rebecca Sophie and it comes
48:31across as a great concept but you mentioned at the start that your experience that you had which
48:36wasn't great and you you didn't know the person is that really atypical though because I thought most
48:42people would go to an agency and the agency will take out employment references the agency might do
48:48a DBS check they'll also give you a reference from the previous landlord so you're taking very limited
48:55risk by dealing with an agency but my phone book could be full of you know not very nice people
49:03so how do you what's your check specifically and give and give me the reason why you're different
49:10the difference is a lot of people have a lead tenant on on a let so there's six of you
49:15living
49:15together one of you is listed as lead tenant and they sign a lot of the paperwork but you have
49:20people
49:20moving in and out of that flat to the agencies they might never see they don't know about so actually
49:26I think the the flat share market is is hugely unseen by agents yeah but what are the checks you're
49:34doing though so well I would be asking through my friends like do you know this person yeah I think
49:40that's a that's a problem okay I would want to have a check on their reference you want to take
49:45a
49:45reference on them you want to have an employment check that's just not how it works though is it
49:48no I agree I think we're flat sharing the reason I know this is because I lived in Manchester for
49:53two
49:53years on the basis of what you just said just room hopping you know and I actually do think that
49:58the strongest point of reference for me would be knowing someone that knows you
50:01and being able to have a conversation with them so the idea I get it so let's get into these
50:09metrics
50:09then yep you said you had 100,000 downloads why are you getting nervous where are we sorry you look
50:14like you're getting nervous you said you had 100,000 you tell me what your key metrics are what
50:20metrics are you guys obsessing over every week month so we do track things like we know the average
50:25usage is around 24 minutes for the app and a single session the early sessions is about four to five
50:30minutes so that first session is really key to getting someone to interact they tend to tail off
50:35quite rapidly so 14 15 days is about the average in terms of cohort retention if you acquired 100
50:41users today 12 months from now how many of them would still be using the app most likely we would
50:47still have 90 of their accounts but actively using very few of them how many roughly do you think I
50:56think probably five five to ten percent but the issue is that a lot of them would then be maybe
51:00a
51:00repeat user within the year because then they tendency comes up within a year they go to find
51:05something else and so with all their details on there they they're already on the app and have
51:09their connection it's like a dating app get a good day and then come back later
51:16rebecca and sophie um so what do you charge um so we have um it's it's a uh premium so
51:27premium
51:27tier starts at seven days for 9.99 14 days for 14.99 and then 28 days for 24.99
51:35can i say so guys
51:38you're going to be thinking much bigger than this because what worries me is your business model
51:45because you're going to go a long way to take a lot of money you've got to add a lot
51:49more features
51:49to this app to actually be a credible business yeah but but alongside that we are looking at various
51:59other avenues for revenue one is just around we're maintaining it around the flats but also i think
52:05we're looking at exploring recommendations for other services we've been approached for our facebook
52:11group about listing for cleaners and for removal firms so there's all sorts of businesses where
52:16people would like a personal recommendation so if say i wanted a plumber i'm likely to call my
52:22friend and say do you know anyone trustworthy because i don't want to get scammed i go online i look
52:26at a review i don't trust those reviews i don't know who was paid to write them but if my
52:30friend has
52:30used that person you're going to charge the plumber to list themselves on or you won't charge them
52:36anything so we would likely let them list and then we would look and see probably explore say kickbacks
52:41for referrals now i i i i think you've got something and yet it's like a jigsaw that's not complete
52:52and i'm involved in co-living and i'm on the board of a we just launched in battersea at 1400
53:00a month which is all the amenities so could you eventually reverse the business and uh have
53:09people advertise in rooms where you get a commission could that be another string to your bow
53:17yeah it's something we certainly we've we had an initial conversation with the co-living business
53:21who were interested in exploring that yeah i mean co-living is definitely an easy add-on yeah yeah
53:28you could think about you know
53:33you know when i look at businesses like this my big concern is if i put in 100k today that
53:39100k
53:39basically will be down the hole by the end of the year and with technology you do need to be
53:45well capitalized because when you launch technology as you know you launch with a hypothesis and the
53:51hypothesis is nearly always wrong and you smell your way to the right product market fit
54:00and i just think this is still pretty insecure because you've got some pivoting to do and i don't
54:06know if we've got the cash and the time so i'm going to say that i'm out
54:16i think i'm kind of similar um i think you've you've you both are really impressive you really are
54:23um but in terms of the business and what you've pitched it's going to come back to one thing
54:30you need money and a lot more money so i'm going to have to say that i'm out
54:40guys i'll tell you where i'm out
54:43it's complicated it feels high risk it feels like there's lots of different business opportunities
54:49going on you haven't really convinced me of it so i'm going to say i'm out
54:54thank you
54:57um so for me um there's something not quite
55:04that i've got i've i've described this many times row of switches lots of questions
55:09you come across really well very very impressive and if you have held me in here
55:15longer than i think i might have been if it was presented by somebody else
55:19so that that's all great however there is the last switch that isn't somehow working for me
55:28so i wish you all the best but i'm out
55:33hi guys i've been on the fence
55:38and trying to explore in my head
55:42um what you've pitched is not investable
55:46but at the same time i don't want to remake your strategy
55:50and that's the problem in my head because i think what you've pitched even a struggle
55:59however what you're building as a community is valuable
56:05and i'm very willing to give you a lifeline
56:09to see whether another part of the business can be attached or not
56:15however there's a price
56:19i'd give you all of the money
56:22a hundred grand but i want 20 percent
56:35um
56:36so we came in with some very um firm boundaries between us
56:43and 20 percent definitely wasn't in there at all
56:48um but we really respect what you've said about us
56:53and platform of the business and the community
56:59and we're really flattered that you want to give us a chance to try and make it work
57:05so we would like to accept your offer
57:07great
57:11success for rebecca and sophie
57:14great thank you so much great
57:16who leave the den with a hundred thousand pounds
57:20congratulations
57:22well done
57:23and the backing of a dragon with the expertise to help their property app
57:28turn big profits
57:34we're so pleased to have someone with tuk's experience on board
57:37yeah he seems really invested in us and seems to believe in us
57:40so it's an amazing opportunity
57:42well done tuk I think you've got two great
57:45yes they're amazing
57:46great entrepreneurs there
58:02next time
58:03i hope they tell me that i was wrong
58:06i would love to be right
58:08and these guys would never live it down
58:10if i am
58:11you've remortgaged your houses
58:13yeah yeah
58:14flabber is gusted
58:15what's the strategy
58:16get a dragon
58:17there's no doubt that you're here for me
58:20surprise surprise
58:23you're here for me
58:24you're here for me
58:24and you're here for me
58:25and you're here for me
58:25and you're here for me
58:25and you're here for me
58:26and you're here for me
58:35and you're here for me
58:36and you're here for me
58:38and you're here for me
58:39and you're here for me
58:39and you're here for me
58:40and you're here for me
58:40and you're here for me
58:40and you're here for me
58:40and you're here for me
58:41and you're here for me
58:43and you're here for me