- 2 days ago
John and Steve map the ways New Apostolic Reformation ideas can enter churches that do not identify as charismatic, often through study materials, guest speakers, music networks, conferences, and "supplemental" discipleship programs that seem harmless at first glance.
They also explain why language around authority, "covering," fivefold governance, and experiential spirituality can function as a pipeline for more controlling structures—especially when accountability only flows upward. The goal is not panic, but awareness: knowing what to watch for, how to ask better questions, and how to protect healthy church life from authoritarian drift.
Chapters
00:00 Introduction
05:21 Tracing The Web: Shepherding, Wimber, Baxter
11:28 Apostolic Authority And The Five-Fold Problem
15:01 Guided Prayer, “Empty Your Mind,” And Hearing God
18:27 “God Is Doing A New Thing”: Conference Buzz And Itching Ears
22:44 NAR Networking: Covering Chains, Councils, And Music Pipelines
27:00 “Fell In Love With His Presence”: Worship As Experience And Addiction
32:38 Prayer Industry: Books, 24/7 Prayer, And Gamified Spirituality
37:07 Asbury 2023: Revival Language And NAR Opportunism
42:57 When You Try To Warn The Class: Controversy And Constraints
45:20 Listener Emails, Guardrails, And Final Thoughts
______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
– Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
– Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr
– Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books
They also explain why language around authority, "covering," fivefold governance, and experiential spirituality can function as a pipeline for more controlling structures—especially when accountability only flows upward. The goal is not panic, but awareness: knowing what to watch for, how to ask better questions, and how to protect healthy church life from authoritarian drift.
Chapters
00:00 Introduction
05:21 Tracing The Web: Shepherding, Wimber, Baxter
11:28 Apostolic Authority And The Five-Fold Problem
15:01 Guided Prayer, “Empty Your Mind,” And Hearing God
18:27 “God Is Doing A New Thing”: Conference Buzz And Itching Ears
22:44 NAR Networking: Covering Chains, Councils, And Music Pipelines
27:00 “Fell In Love With His Presence”: Worship As Experience And Addiction
32:38 Prayer Industry: Books, 24/7 Prayer, And Gamified Spirituality
37:07 Asbury 2023: Revival Language And NAR Opportunism
42:57 When You Try To Warn The Class: Controversy And Constraints
45:20 Listener Emails, Guardrails, And Final Thoughts
______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
– Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
– Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr
– Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books
Category
📚
LearningTranscript
00:31Hello, and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast.
00:36I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research
00:40at william-branham.org.
00:42And with me, I have my co-host and friend, Steve Montgomery, author of The Converging Apostasy
00:47and A Quick Outline of Hands-On Eschatology, A Matter of Timing and Agency.
00:53Steve, I feel like it's been over a year, and maybe it has been over a year.
00:57It's been forever since you and I spoke.
01:00But you hit me up with this topic today, and I'll be honest, I don't think too many people
01:05have really gone deep with this, and it is important.
01:09I noticed whenever I left Branhamism and went into some of the modern churches, denominational
01:15churches, I noticed that there were certain things, there were certain aspects that I
01:20could see just so similar.
01:22And I've, as anything, I study to no end.
01:26So I'm studying these trails of doctrine, where do they come from?
01:29And you can trace some of these threads all the way back to revival, the revival that Branham
01:36and others were in.
01:37And I got to scratch in my head thinking, well, this can't be, why would they adopt this?
01:42Now that I'm looking at all of these different groups that are in the New Apostolic Reformation,
01:46I'm starting to notice that as a whole, this group of apostolic networks is invading the
01:53churches.
01:54And like I said, I don't know that anybody has tried to tackle this, but I'm interested
01:59to hear what you say about this, because it is fascinating and scary all at the same time.
02:04Yeah, John, it has been a long time since we've got together.
02:06But through my attending, one of these, what you would call normal, non-charismatic denominational
02:15churches, I have seen some, what I think of as just like nar incursions, and little bitty
02:23things sometimes that you could say, innocently being introduced.
02:30Other times it looks like there's a rhyme and a reason, like things are being prepped, and
02:35there's some negative forces behind these preps.
02:40So what I'm thinking here, this may seem like an obvious question, but I have in front of
02:45me here, does the nar have an interest in non-charismatic denominational churches?
02:51The answer is yes.
02:53So let's maybe take a look at some of that, and then stop, and I'm sure you'll have a lot
02:59to say about it.
02:59So this church I was attending during the Sunday school class, there was a presentation, it's
03:10called Seedbed, and so it's introduced informally as a supplemental Sunday school Bible study
03:18group presentation.
03:22So I'm like you, John, I like to look up things and find out, okay, is there a rhyme or
03:27reason
03:27to the way this thing is being produced?
03:31Oh, there's something not in my notes, and I hope this doesn't offend anybody, but the
03:37way the presenter, well, she looked kind of glassy-eyed to me, kind of in a state of reverie,
03:43maybe, which I couldn't say is a bad thing, but she had a way of pronouncing Jesus, okay?
03:50For most of us, it's Jesus.
03:52For her, it was Jesus, and I have heard that in mostly charismatic circles, so I said, okay,
04:00again, no huge crime, but it just kind of perked up my ears.
04:05And so since my ears were already perked up, and I wanted to find out more about the group,
04:12I founded a 2023 post at the Seedbed website, and lo and behold, it gave a very favorable
04:23account of John Wimber, the founder of Vineyard Movement, which, as many of your listeners
04:31would know, began in the 1980s and went by such names as the Third Wave.
04:38Well, then we find out that the Third Wave was a term coined by the NAR apostle, Peter
04:43Wagner, and so, again, like I said, it really perked up my ears and made me wonder what's
04:51going on here, how deep does this run, but it is reminding me of something that we're both
04:57aware of is that the NAR and this Third Wave have easily been seen to make claims of signs
05:07and wonders performed by so-called modern-day apostles and prophets who believe that God
05:14is speaking directly through.
05:16Like I said, it's just so fascinating to me.
05:19I'm digging deep, and you don't know this.
05:22I've been doing this kind of by myself and with a few other hosts.
05:26We've been looking into, digging into the research of the epicenter of whenever the Pentecostal
05:32movement started to explode into what became charismatic, which obviously is going to include
05:38Chuck Smith, John Wimber, some of the names you're mentioning, and trying to identify is
05:44there a clear trail of history, and what I'm finding is it's very convoluted.
05:48There isn't really a clear trail.
05:49What I instead see are so many weird connections like Lonnie Frisbee, who is staying in the apartment
05:57of one of the shepherding leaders, and you just got – you can't make this stuff up.
06:03It's like all of these web of connections.
06:05The shepherding movement was spearheaded by five figures, one of which was William Branham's
06:13partner and campaign manager, and Baxter.
06:15So you've got all of these webs of connections.
06:18And the problem is – so shepherding movement, it spiraled out of control, and it became exposed
06:25as authoritarian.
06:26And it was making a big disruption in charismatic Christianity.
06:31And I've got – I don't know if I've shared this with you – I've got some magazines from
06:35the shepherding – that promoted the shepherding movement after it had pretty well been exposed.
06:41John Wimber is trying to bring everybody back together in unity.
06:45And so you've got the Wimber aspect, you've got the shepherding aspect, and you've got
06:49so many other streams coming into this.
06:52Well, if you take a step back from a denominational standpoint, you have lots of Christians who are
06:58in denominational churches who are also reading some of these Christian magazines and subscribing
07:04to the, you know, Christian radio stations, Christian publications, books, etc., and they
07:10don't really have a clear distinction between what came from this revival mess and what is
07:17true Christianity.
07:18So some of it just kind of bleeds in.
07:21I don't know that there's any hidden agenda, but you see this cross-pollination of ideas that
07:26some of them are coming into the church.
07:28Some of them are good.
07:29I'm not going to lie.
07:30But some of them are just, you know, I have to question whether some of the ideas are actually
07:36Christian ideas that are seeping in, but yet it's mainstream Christianity.
07:40Yeah, and as we talk about John Wimber, something flashes through my mind that does go back to
07:47the latter rain, and that is his promotion of Franklin Hall, one of the more strange prophets
07:55of that movement, and so, of course, his big emphasis was on atomic power through prayer,
08:04and that was a predecessor to the latter rain movement by just a couple of years, 46.
08:12Atomic power by God through fasting and prayer.
08:15Fasting and prayer, this is it.
08:18Yeah, and anybody who's read the accounts of the latter rain when it first began up in
08:26Saskatchewan at North Battleford, you had this idea that people had already been fasting up
08:35to 30 days, supposedly, and so they were really, really in a state of heightened anticipation
08:41for something to happen, they were praying for a revival, and then somebody, John, you've
08:50got a real knack for hunting things down.
08:53I've never heard who this was, but I've heard that there was a young lady who stood up and
09:00prophesied to the group, unidentified for me, I haven't found her name, but she said something
09:08to the effect of, take off your shoes, for you stand on holy ground.
09:14Okay, so that had a big impression on the folks, I guess.
09:19But as far as this incursion into denominational churches goes, a church that I've visited pretty
09:28regularly and gone to other Sunday school classes had this disoccurrence.
09:35Okay, so the senior pastor at this non-charismatic denominational church implied that travailing
09:45prayer had been lost to the denominational churches in America, that denominational churches can't
09:52compete with the effectiveness of the churches in Africa, Central America, South America, which
09:59thrive in numerical growth and emotional fervor, and that the churches of the third world will
10:08likely become what he said centers of pure and engaging Christianity.
10:14So, I'd heard that kind of talk before, but I thought it was interesting that it was being
10:19presented in this setting.
10:23Later, the pastor made a casual reference to, here it goes, IHOP, I think he called it
10:30the International House of Prayer, because there was, the pastor very informally said that,
10:37confessed that, you know, sometimes I just don't know how to pray.
10:41And so then he made this reference to IHOP.
10:44And he also made a reference, not only to me personally, because I asked him by way of
10:52email, he made a reference to Mike Bickle and to Alan Hood, one of Bickle's long-term associates.
11:00When I asked him about this, he did become a bit defensive and responded that he had not been
11:07duped by the NAR, once I explained what that was, and that the official position that he held
11:14was a millennial, which kind of doesn't fit some of the stuff you hear in the NAR about
11:19taking dominion and the seven mountains.
11:22He also said, and this is a familiar idea, he said that challenging anyone in a position
11:30of church leadership was a serious matter.
11:33And of course, we've heard that, that's not that anointed idea.
11:37Darrell Bock I think I mentioned one of the first churches
11:39that we attended, which was a mainstream denominational church.
11:43They were taking the position that the apostles were a governing figure, not somebody who was
11:50sent out, somebody who was a messenger, the biblical term for apostle.
11:54They really saw it as a church authority.
11:58And at the time, I'm a new, I'm literally new to everything, because I'd left the cult,
12:03I'd left that mindset, and I just kind of wiped my slate clean, and I said, teach me,
12:08I want to learn.
12:09Well, they're teaching me this authoritarian structure of church governance, and something
12:14just didn't sit right.
12:15I didn't really understand yet how bad it was, but whenever I began to understand that
12:22the five-fold ministry concept that came out of latter rain was invading the churches,
12:27and yes, they may not have adopted the full five-fold ministry.
12:30They did adopt some of the authoritarian ideas that came from it.
12:35And so I got into a bit of a discussion with one of the ministers trying to get him to
12:42explain
12:43why an authoritarian structure was needed if we had the Holy Spirit.
12:46And I'll never forget to look on the face, because as a Christian minister, you really
12:51can't answer that question.
12:52If God's governing, why do I need to govern the people?
12:55Right.
12:55And so it turned into this weird conversation that I'll never forget and I'll never
13:00understand.
13:01But that conversation is actually what led me into digging deeper into the authoritarian
13:06ideas that were coming out of Branhamism, and then to think that it created a whole movement.
13:12The shepherding movement was literally an authoritarian structure based off of this, and the cult's
13:17idea was an authoritarian idea, to think that that evaded, you know, all of the Christian
13:24governance that could have applied to it.
13:27Somehow they skirted around it, and that it laid the groundwork for what literally became
13:33the New Apostolic Reformation.
13:34That was the prototype for the apostolic governance.
13:38Yeah, and when you talk about authoritarian, what I'm hearing in my head is anybody, you
13:44know, consider this a red flag when they talk about, I'm under the covering of such and
13:51such minister, prophet, apostle, whoever they think they are.
13:55And that would be the thing where if you're not under somebody's covering, meaning leadership,
14:01meaning authoritarian structure, then you're really not in God's perfect will.
14:06And so these sorts of churches, or the NAR especially, will offer that form of covering for any individual
14:15that wants it, and those who don't want it too.
14:19So later I met with this new leader we had at this church, and she was pretty much in charge
14:25of prayer initiatives that happened at the church.
14:29She had kind of a new position that had been opened up.
14:33And she had just left the congregation in what she called a focused prayer reading of scripture.
14:41And this is what caught me when she said this.
14:45She instructed everyone to close their eyes, take long, slow breaths, not your muscles relax,
14:54breathe in the Holy Spirit.
14:56Okay, interesting.
14:58And then we were told to empty our minds with the expectation that we would hear from the
15:05actual voice of God.
15:06Okay, so that was very interesting.
15:09And so I met her after the service, and I learned that she attended a house church that was affiliated
15:18with the NAR prophet, Mike Bickles, IHOP.
15:24Then, you know, just being in the right spot at the right time to learn some of this stuff,
15:29I asked her if she was aware, I just kind of threw this one out a little dart and see
15:33where it stuck.
15:35Asked her if she was aware of the latter rain prophet, Bill Britton,
15:38or his seminal hands on eschatology that he wrote in one of his main books,
15:46Jesus, the Patterson.
15:48She very cheerfully said, yes, like she wasn't faking.
15:54She knew about that, which again talks about connections, like you're saying spiderwebs.
15:59She's in a position of leadership and a position to introduce ideas in even a non-charismatic church.
16:10She's affiliated with IHOP, and she knows straight-up manifest sons of God teacher Bill Britton in his book,
16:20Jesus the Patterson, and of course being affiliated with the latter rain too, Bill Britton.
16:27And so that was interesting.
16:29So I couldn't talk for a long time then, but I went on to ask her if she knew of
16:35George Warnock.
16:38And I mentioned to her that he was, say, a leader in the latter rain movement
16:43and the author of a very influential book called The Feast of Tabernacles.
16:48She again said yes that she knew of this book.
16:52Now, that doesn't prove that she approves of every single doctrine or is totally aware of everything in it,
16:58but the fact that she even knew about it was, to me, kind of interesting.
17:05So about the same time, I went to the senior pastor's wife,
17:10who was in one of the Sunday school classes that I attended,
17:15and I asked her about the latter rain and the gnar and told her what I had found out from
17:19reading about it.
17:21And I mentioned the potentially dangerous prophet, Bill Hammond, in particular.
17:27She agreed that Hammond was kind of crazy, but she didn't say that as a critic.
17:33So, like, oh, you know, that's so Uncle Henry.
17:36He says the wildest things.
17:39But she went on to say that, just like Hammond, she had a prophetic ministry.
17:45So, it's been a long time since we talked, but just very briefly,
17:51Bill Hammond was totally influenced by the latter rain.
17:55He was a member of the Gnar leadership,
17:59and he was another one that really influenced C. Peter Wagner as far as theology goes.
18:05And he was a died-in-the-well-manifest Sons-of-God teacher,
18:10which means dominion, perfection, and what I think of as the sacred purge
18:16were all present in his teachings,
18:19and included the fact that I interviewed him, and he substantiated all that.
18:25So, soon after this, an associate pastor of the same denominational church
18:30told me that he had just returned from a very inspirational conference,
18:36and he said that it was spirit-filled and that God was doing a new thing.
18:42And that right there is the key.
18:44If you can tell the churches that there's a new thing, new exciting thing,
18:49well, everybody's going to look for the new excitement.
18:51That's just how it is.
18:52And it's sad to me because the Bible talks about those that had the itching ears.
18:57But the truth of the matter is, whenever –
19:00so, when we left, we tried an array of different churches.
19:04Some of them were tiny, tiny churches.
19:06And I actually felt pretty at home at those.
19:09I went to some that were so large, they're nicknamed Six Flags Over Jesus,
19:13and they're quite the opposite of the little tiny church.
19:16But when you have that large of a church, and I'm not picking on that one in particular.
19:22We went to a few large ones.
19:24There comes a point where the church itself has to have something of entertainment
19:30to keep attracting that many people because there's a cost in keeping the doors open.
19:35If everybody were to decide that, oh, this church over here has a more entertaining service,
19:40I can go over there, and the flocks leave, well, now you've got this building with this massive expense,
19:46and how do you pay for it?
19:47You have to have something entertaining to bring them back.
19:50So, it turns – it's almost like a game of circuses, you know.
19:54It turns into something where you're looking for the excitement.
19:59And so, for me, I just – it's not a world I'm familiar with, and I don't understand it.
20:05I don't understand how a minister would ever want to do that.
20:09So, I avoid the larger churches for the most part.
20:13We sometimes do attend them, but there's just so much problems with that.
20:20And the other thing I'll mention, and I don't know how far I'll go with this because I don't want
20:25to –
20:25again, I don't want to point out an individual church in this area.
20:30But there are churches who – one of the attractions is to bring guest speakers in.
20:36And sometimes it may not be for the Sunday service.
20:38It may just be men's gathering.
20:40It might be some sort of an after – they've got these classes, that kind of thing.
20:45One of the churches had a bunch of classrooms in it.
20:48Well, some of the speakers, if you're trying to make this an every week thing, every month thing, whatever it
20:53is,
20:54is, well, it's not that easy to find speakers, and you can't really vet all of the speakers.
21:00So, some of those speakers might be talking about IHOP or some of the other names that you've mentioned.
21:06And they may not even know themselves.
21:08They may not even be aware of the many problems.
21:11But somebody now sitting in that room has heard it, and maybe it piqued their interest.
21:16And so, they go look it up.
21:17And what do they find?
21:18Oh, my gosh, they found the New Apostolic Reformation.
21:21Now, that spreads into the men's group, and it's like this virus that spreads through the church.
21:26And as you're speaking, the word virus, yeah, I'm thinking by this point, you can hear that John and myself
21:33are clearly saying that,
21:34yes, there is a NAR incursion into non-charismatic denominational churches.
21:41And it's really hard to avoid, especially, like you're saying, a large church.
21:46So, what does that come down to?
21:47That comes down to NAR networking, which is one of the best ways that they spread their influence to other
21:56churches.
21:57So, there's something here that I would add to that, is that the NAR-affiliated, James Gull,
22:04who actually comes across fairly normal.
22:10He's not, like, screaming at you like some of the very fiery prophets will do.
22:18He's kind of a low-key fellow.
22:21But Gull, James Gull, along with Bill Hammond, who I mentioned earlier, is a member of the so-called Apostolic
22:30Council of Prophetic Elders.
22:33Okay, so there you do have a little, it's kind of loosely fit together, but you have this network that
22:41functions through this council.
22:45Gull is referred to as a prophet in Harvest Ministries Network.
22:51Hmm, another way of spreading influence.
22:54He is under the covering or leadership of the NAR-affiliated Apostle, Che-Anne.
23:02And people that have looked into the NAR, they've probably heard that name before.
23:06So, I'm throwing several names that you hear, but there's a rhyme and a reason.
23:11Then, at this church that James Gull is considered to be a prophet, that one has a head pastor named
23:22Alex Seeley.
23:23And his church is called The Belonging.
23:28So, Seeley is under this supervision, a.k.a. covering of this NAR prophet, James Gull.
23:36Then, an interesting thing comes around.
23:38And this is another way, I mean, you know, John, you know about music, as I do, I play gigs.
23:46And so, music really is, you know, the language that so many people can connect up and find camaraderie, if
24:00you want to say it like that.
24:01So, at the same church, Natalie Green, who's a popular contemporary Christian musical person, she's a recording artist.
24:12She leads the worship at Seeley's Belonging.
24:16So, just to review, you have this James Gull, and he's under the leadership of Cheyenne.
24:27Alex Seeley is the pastor of the NAR-affiliated church called The Belonging.
24:34And then, Natalie Grant is the worship leader at this church.
24:40So many connections, man.
24:41And the names you're mentioning, Cheyenne, some of these people are very high-ranking figures in the New Apostolic Reformation.
24:49They're not only responsible for the United States, but they're responsible for also governing committees that exist abroad in other
24:56countries, etc.
24:57And the fact that there's even that type of authoritarian consortium, it really makes you question the entire thing.
25:05I can understand having a committee that is, you know, advising churches and giving them some sort of boundaries.
25:12That makes sense to me.
25:13But the way that they've established it, where you've got an authoritarian hierarchy, where the leaders can't be questioned.
25:21That's, for me, the real problem here.
25:23The leaders are accountable only to the leadership.
25:26And some of the names that you're mentioning, I'm not going to, you know, go directly to those.
25:31But some of the names you're mentioning are in that chain of command where the rank-and-file members say
25:37they discover some egregious sin among them.
25:41They can't go to the other council and say, hey, look, this guy's got a problem or this girl's got
25:46a problem.
25:46Instead, the leadership has to follow what was dubbed apparently the Moses model by some of the figures that I'm
25:54examining now.
25:56And that Moses model just went straight up the chain, where the leadership is not accountable to the people.
26:02They're accountable only to the other leadership.
26:05And as one – as Chuck Smith put it when he said we have the Moses model, he says they're
26:11accountable only to God.
26:13Well, yes, that sounds good until there's a real problem.
26:17You have to have some accountability and some transparency.
26:20So this became – this became a pretty big problem.
26:24And that was a problem in the, what, 70s and 80s.
26:27And it just continues on today.
26:28Yeah, and what you're talking about, the accountability and who's under the covering or leadership of who, that really comes
26:38down to what I thought was a very regular group of folks, good people.
26:46I would say good Christians, nothing unusual about them.
26:49But they looked for supplemental videos and things to open up discussion and Bible study.
26:59So in one of these Bible studies at the same church I'm talking about, we saw a lesson that was
27:08presented by Christian author Lisa Harper.
27:11And at the very end of this lecture she gave, it's a Bible study, she mentions and has a small
27:22interview with the previously mentioned Natalie Grant that's in Alex Seeley's church called The Belonging.
27:30She's the music minister there.
27:33So, okay, I heard this one before.
27:36But let's see, you know, you don't want to hop in and immediately cuss to everybody with, you know, a
27:43very negative viewpoint.
27:45Let's find out.
27:46So in this interview, Grant talked about God's help at a period of personal crisis.
27:53Okay, well, that sounds like what a Christian should be talking about, God's help.
27:58But then she began to shift the object of her praise and affection away from God, away from Jesus Christ.
28:05And repeatedly dropped the buzzwords, his presence, over and over again in her talk with Harper.
28:14At the conclusion of this, she said, I fell in love with his presence.
28:21Interesting.
28:22It sounds subtle.
28:23It sounds like being nitpicky, but it's not.
28:29And so this is one of those unfortunate side effects of addiction to the latter-range style of praise and
28:36worship.
28:36Why?
28:38Because it produces the so-called, produces the presence of God so that you can feel it.
28:45And this is euphoric.
28:47And it's observable.
28:49Anybody who's ever been in a church like this will tell you all about it.
28:53Anybody who's been counseled out of one of these churches will tell you all about it.
28:58And that's me.
28:59I've been there before, and I think Johnny's been there.
29:02So this kind of worship is based on experience.
29:06It's habit-forming as a way of so-called getting to know the Lord.
29:12And it's an invocation-like call for a closer walk.
29:17Unfortunately, it ends up becoming an idolatrous form of self-worship, in which it is incumbent upon the worshiper to
29:27conjure up or call down the presence.
29:31It is a faith based on what is seen, heard, and felt.
29:36Through this form of worship, denominational and evangelical churches are exposed to, and I believe corrupted by,
29:46the most unquestionable doctrines and practices, which cater to the senses, the wallet, and spiritual pride.
29:54And I really don't know how you can not have this type of pride.
30:00Whenever you're in a system where the leadership are being presented as the spiritual elite,
30:07and they're untouchable by the rank-and-file member, they become heroes, and they become part of hero worship.
30:13And you have a system where the humans are worshipped, maybe not as much as the God, but to a
30:21level that's pretty close.
30:22You know what I mean?
30:23So you have this hero worship that's spread all around.
30:26Well, whoever's in that system of hero worship, it goes to your head.
30:30You're going to be filled with pride.
30:31And so it's a system that really creates pride.
30:35And one of the interesting studies that anybody can do is just read through the New Testament
30:39and find how many times pride is mentioned as a sin.
30:43Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started,
30:46or how the progression of modern Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter reign,
30:52charismatic, and other fringe movements into the New Apostolic Reformation?
30:56You can learn this and more on William Branham Historical Research's website, william-branham.org.
31:04On the books page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins, Charles Paisley,
31:10Stephen Montgomery, John McKinnon, and others, with links to the paper, audio, and digital versions of each book.
31:18You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those movements.
31:24If you want to contribute to the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the Contribute button at the
31:30top.
31:31And as always, be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening to or
31:37watching.
31:37On behalf of William Branham Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support.
31:42To continue with this church, which, you know, anybody asks me, I'd say this head pastor there is a very
31:51good preacher.
31:53He's apparently very humble and a good pastor.
31:58He helps help people that need counsel.
32:01And so it's not to say you're at fault.
32:06It's just to say there's some information that you might want to be aware of.
32:12Just as, you know, the apostles, not that I'm claiming to be one by any means, but you got Peter,
32:19Paul, John, James, directly speaking towards excesses and things to try to minimize in your relationship with God.
32:29And so that would be one way to look at it.
32:34So at the same church, the pastor brought up the idea of increasing the quality of our prayer life.
32:43And so he told us about a book that he really thought was wonderful.
32:49It's by Pete Gregg.
32:51It's called How to Pray, A Simple Guide for Normal People.
32:56And that was published in 2019.
33:00So Greg has participated in the Lateranish seminars that include the NAR-affiliated Cindy Jacobs and others.
33:12Jacobs has said that there must be complete unity of evangelicals, charismatics, and Pentecostals.
33:20So my question would be, since she's NAR-affiliated and kind of by way of secondary connection, she's being introduced
33:31to this church that I'm attending.
33:33So who really gains and who suffers from this kind of unity?
33:39I don't think you can have unity at any cost and unity despite how you treat people, your doctrines, your
33:49practices, and so on.
33:51So the same head pastor later encouraged the congregation to do something we've never done before.
33:58He instructed us to engage in 24-7 prayer and to bathe the church with intercessory prayer.
34:08So is there anything wrong with the word choice of bathe and 24-7 prayer?
34:17Even though it's been borrowed from NAR advocates who facilitate NAR influence.
34:24Or is there any problem with the assumptions implied by this new and improved form of more spiritually effective prayer?
34:32You know, like I said, I started learning Christianity from square one whenever I left.
34:39And the idea of a better prayer is just so confusing to me.
34:43How do you pray better?
34:45When I'm talking to you, I guess I could talk better and you could understand me better.
34:50But if God is supposed to be all understanding, can you really do that?
34:54I don't know that you can.
34:56There are Bible passages that says he knows our needs before we even ask them.
34:59He knows our prayer before we even pray.
35:01So if you're talking about a God who is almighty, who knows the inside of your heart before you even
35:07speak or bow your head,
35:10that's a God who doesn't really need you to pray better.
35:13The whole thing just doesn't make any sense to me.
35:16But what it does – where it does make sense is if you have a strategy where you can give
35:22people a – what's the word?
35:25In the IT world, we call it gamification.
35:27We gamify things and we make it more appealing, more exciting because there's an achievement.
35:33If you unlock that achievement, then you go to the next achievement.
35:38This crazy Christian world has created the idea of gamifying prayer where you can pray just slightly better and you
35:46unlock the achievement.
35:47You might become more spiritual.
35:48You unlock the next one.
35:50And it's just so wrong when you think about it.
35:53It tells people – you take somebody who's off the street, who loves God, who really just pours out their
35:59heart,
36:00and then come and listen to somebody who says, well, you don't really know how to pray, my brother.
36:05What does that – how does that make them feel?
36:07And I look at this – this whole thing is just wrong.
36:10Yeah, it's wrong.
36:11And as you're speaking, it reminded me – I don't have chapter and verse on this, but – and I'm
36:18not really sure who said it.
36:19I think it might have been Jesus who said it, but he makes an example between two different people praying.
36:28And he says one comes in very haughty and feels that they're superior.
36:33The other beats its chest and in humility says, have mercy on me, a sinner.
36:39And so, in that it says, who do you think was justified by their way of praying to God?
36:49So, I think that's very telling.
36:53So, of course, narphalated apostles and prophets have consequences to what they say.
37:02So, this was, again, something that the head pastor mentioned and didn't give a whole lot of detail.
37:09But he spoke very glowingly about a revival, so-called, that was associated with what God was doing at Asbury
37:18University.
37:19If I'm not mistaken, Asbury is considered a fairly normal theological school, not really affiliated with nar or any other
37:31thing.
37:32But here was something I found out when I looked into Asbury University and any kind of revival.
37:40So, it so happens that Holly Pivick and Doug Givett, I think is his last name, they've written an excellent
37:49article that you can find online.
37:52It's called The Nar and the Asbury Revival, Why We Should Be Concerned.
37:58And that was written in 2023.
38:03So, what did they tell us?
38:05They tell us that the nar made a very strong showing at this so-called outpouring of the Spirit.
38:11And that it was supported by apostles, prophets, and nar leaders who took to social media to promote the event,
38:20to promote the revival.
38:22So, this article also focuses on three affiliated nar, excuse me, nar-affiliated prophets.
38:30One, Lance Wallnau, who's fairly notorious in his comments and teachings.
38:38Chris Valotone, who's, I believe he's with Bethel, which is also nar.
38:43And this fellow, again, James Gull.
38:47So, the need for concern was due to the nar's extreme position that, quote,
38:55Apostles and prophets must govern the church or else there cannot be true or lasting revival.
39:04So, Holly and Doug are not looking to tear down the whole house.
39:11They believe that you can be charismatic, you can desire revival, but this kind of authoritarian way of saying,
39:23if you want real revival and real prayer, then you better do it our way and be in submission to
39:30us.
39:31It also mentioned that a sermon was made by Alan Hood, the one I mentioned earlier,
39:39and that the students at Asbury were exposed by him to the eschatological goals of the lettering influence mandate
39:47to, one, rise up and take dominion of society, two, expect a great end-time revival,
39:55and three, become part of the global church, rising up in miraculous power to usher in Christ's return.
40:04For Pivik and Gavet, the faith and allegiance of young and vulnerable Christians
40:10are in the process of being what they call hijacked by nar prophets such as Dutch Sheets,
40:18Alan Hood, and the very notorious Lou Ingle.
40:21According to them, what recently transpired at Asbury reflects, quote,
40:28the opportunistic impulse of nar leaders who seek to gain visibility
40:34and further their nar agenda to bring heaven to earth.
40:40So, what the nar leader Dutch Sheets said in his An Appeal to Heaven, that was 2015,
40:49figured prominently in Asbury's so-called Collegiate Day of Prayer.
40:54According to Pivik and Gavet, Sheets also, through his Appeal to Heaven teachings,
41:02has been seen as one of the major factors fueling the ride at the Capitol.
41:08Darrell Bock And that's really the other problem that I have
41:10with this invasion or this virus, however you want to call it.
41:14The latter rain movement was heavily influenced by politics,
41:19and we've talked through some of the political history.
41:22So, you had politics entering into the revival,
41:24and then the revival themes took on political themes.
41:28Well, now, years, decades later, this is coming into the churches,
41:32and it has, interestingly, some of the political themes from the 50s and 60s,
41:37but it's also hyper-focused on some of the current urgent political missions
41:43by some of the people.
41:44So, you've got this mixing of revival and politics,
41:47and that blend together.
41:49It's really hard for me to call that Christianity.
41:51So, this final comment that I have is quite personal,
41:58and I thought it was very telling about influences
42:04that people and leadership in the NAR can have,
42:10and not to go way into it, as you mentioned in politics,
42:13but there have been several people who've recently been in a position
42:22to testify about things that they experienced,
42:26which would be completely illegal,
42:29but due to fear of reprisals and any kind of negative results
42:39have been sort of pushed to the side,
42:43or at least felt uneasy about getting involved in the comments
42:47that they wanted to say.
42:50Okay, so this is a more personal thing
42:53related to neuroincursions at this church,
42:57which I said is non-charismatic, denominational,
43:01and it goes like this.
43:04I made a lesson plan after speaking to the leader of the Sunday school class,
43:10and so we had it lined up, right?
43:13I mean, as you know, John, a lesson on either sort of stuff,
43:18even if you're toning it down and editing it quite a bit,
43:22you know, like 30-minute slots at Sunday school,
43:28I mean, it can easily go, like, four lessons through four weeks,
43:32and so I had those, and I had videos of other folks than myself,
43:37had some videos by Holly, like eight-minute videos,
43:41and then discussion questions to go with them.
43:45So I really wasn't trying to toot my own horn,
43:47and I didn't have anything from me
43:49other than direct quotes of some of the NAR folks,
43:54and then, again, some discussion questions.
43:58So the leader said, yes, he was all into it.
44:02He said he really enjoyed that,
44:04and he listened to the videos
44:07and thought they were appropriate,
44:08and they weren't extreme or anything like that.
44:14And so he said, yeah, go for it, Steve.
44:17Okay, I don't know what happened in the meantime,
44:19but the fact that he not only said go for it,
44:24but he let me know that one of his daughters
44:28is in a NAR-affiliated church,
44:30and so he has a personal feeling about this.
44:35Okay, so I looked at this and thought that
44:39I think this could do some good,
44:41but whatever happened between our discussion
44:44of presenting these things
44:46and then getting to the moment of going ahead
44:49and teaching these lessons
44:53was that I was allotted only one 30-minute spot
44:57to cover the whole topic
44:59of why Christians should be aware of the NAR
45:03and its dangers.
45:05My only thought was that this was due to the feeling
45:09that it might be a little bit too controversial
45:11and alarm some of our newer members of the class.
45:16Well, this has been fascinating, Steve.
45:18I know it's a touchy subject for a lot of people,
45:21but interestingly, I get, you know,
45:24in fact, I'm looking through my email now
45:25at some people who are questioning,
45:28is this thing that we have in our church,
45:30is this new apostolic reformation invading our church?
45:32I get this from time to time,
45:34and it's really scary for people.
45:36I usually respond,
45:38I don't want to heighten the fears.
45:40You know, it is bad,
45:42and I really don't like the authoritarianism
45:45coming into the churches.
45:46What I usually respond is,
45:48many of the mainstream churches,
45:51unless they get overtaken
45:54by the New Apostolic Reformation,
45:56there is a sort of structure
45:58that kind of prevents some of the bad things
46:00from happening
46:00in some of the denominational churches.
46:03So depending on the one that you're going to,
46:05it may or may not.
46:06I don't know each individual church structure,
46:09but I will say that some of them
46:11will not let an authoritarian leader come in.
46:14Otherwise, there are checks and balances
46:17that have to be in place
46:19to make sure that somebody isn't going to hijack
46:22and turn it into a cult.
46:24So not to raise the fears of people,
46:26but just the threads of this stuff
46:29making it into the churches
46:30and the names that you're mentioning.
46:32I can't believe a mainstream church
46:34would preach anything from IHOP, KC,
46:37or any of these people.
46:39So it's a little bit scary,
46:40but I think there are enough checks and balances
46:44that it makes it preventable of disaster.
46:46I'll just say it like that.
46:48Thank you so much for doing this.
46:49You're very welcome, John.
46:50Hope to see you again soon this time.
46:53Well, if you've enjoyed our show
46:54and you want more information,
46:55you can check us out on the web.
46:56You can find us at william-branham.org.
46:58For more about the dark side
47:00of the New Apostolic Reformation,
47:01you can read Weaponized Religion
47:03from Christian Identity to the NAR.
47:05Available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.
47:34You can find us at william-branham.org.
47:37You can find us at william-branham.org.
47:44You can find us at william-branham.org.
47:45You can find us at william-branham.org.
47:47You can find us at william-branham.org.
47:50You can find us at william-branham.org.
47:51You can find us at william-branham.org.
47:51You can find us at william-branham.org.
47:52You can find us at william-branham.
47:52You can find us at william-branham.org.
47:53You can find us at william-branham.
47:55You can find us at william-branham.
47:56You can find us at william-branham.
47:59You can find us at william-branham.
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