Radical Obedience and Spiritual Abuse: A Survivor’s Story

2 days ago

John invites Catherine to share her story of joining the Jesus Movement in the early 1970s and becoming trapped in a nomadic, authoritarian group led by Jim Roberts. Together, they explore how radical obedience, perfectionism, and apocalyptic urgency slowly replaced faith in Christ with fear-driven loyalty to leadership.

As the conversation unfolds, John and Catherine connect these patterns to broader charismatic and revivalist movements, showing how fear, isolation, and leader-mediated obedience function as tools of control. The discussion offers insight for anyone trying to understand spiritual abuse, deconstruction, and how high-control religious systems reshape belief, identity, and relationships.

00:00 Introduction
00:31 Katherine’s Background in the Jesus Movement
04:00 End-Times Urgency and Isolation
12:57 Radical Obedience and Perfectionism
18:24 Fear, Expulsion, and Public Shaming
29:44 Control Through Apocalyptic Teaching
37:51 Abuse, Authority, and Gender Roles
44:44 Breaking Away and Rebuilding Faith
52:32 Deconstruction, Healing, and Reordering Belief
56:17 Where the Movement Is Today

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Transcript

00:31Hello, and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast.

00:36I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research at william-branham.org.

00:42And with me, I have my very special guest, Catherine Clemons, former member of the Jim Roberts Group.

00:49Catherine, it's good to have you on.

00:51I've, as I've mentioned on the podcast a couple of times, I've been fighting the flu, and so we've had

00:56to postpone this.

00:57But I'm finally getting over it.

00:59I've got my breath back, my air back, and this will probably go out long after this based on the

01:04schedule.

01:04But know that I have wanted to connect with you.

01:07I've just been, you know, desperately trying to get over this thing.

01:10So it was a nasty one this year.

01:12But anyway, if you could just take a few minutes and tell everybody a little bit about yourself.

01:17Well, way back in the 70s, I joined the Jesus Movement and ended up in a cult.

01:26And it was led by a man named Jim Roberts.

01:29And Jim Roberts had been a Marine.

01:33He had been raised in the United Pentecostal Church.

01:39And so the two kind of go together.

01:42He had, you know, he was a very strict authoritarian.

01:44And he had all of these strange rules that us former hippies were not very used to.

01:52You know, women, of course, we were used to having long hair.

01:57That wasn't a problem.

01:58But wearing the long dresses all the time.

02:01And that was very strange.

02:04And then all the other rules, no artwork, no pictures, no Christmas.

02:12There was a, started making a list because it was, I think we didn't believe in more things than we

02:19did believe in.

02:21But I was in there from 1971, I think, until 78.

02:31And in the group, I met my first husband, and we had two children in the group.

02:39And the group lived by hitchhiking all around the country.

02:44And so even when we had our babies, we were expected to hitchhike.

02:48And that was pretty tough.

02:51And we lived, well, we thought we were, well, we were told we were the little flock.

02:59We were it.

03:00We were the only ones on earth who were saved.

03:03Everybody else was part of the world.

03:05They were going to hell.

03:07And we were the chosen ones.

03:10Like the outrageous hubris, you know.

03:15So we were out to save the world, kind of, sort of.

03:19Because it didn't take long before our, I would just say, like our true love for Jesus and sharing about

03:28Jesus to people kind of just evolved into talking about a lifestyle.

03:33So the lifestyle was based on a few scriptures.

03:39The rich young ruler who came to Jesus and said, what must I do to be saved?

03:44And Jesus said, to sell everything, give to the poor, and follow me.

03:49And Jesus saying that he didn't have a place to lay his head.

03:53So we couldn't have a permanent place to live.

03:56We had to just be nomads.

04:00And we didn't really talk about it too much.

04:03But kind of in the background, there was this urgent last days thinking and feeling that the world was really

04:12lost.

04:13It was a mess.

04:14And we didn't want to be part of it.

04:16And we wanted to escape all of that.

04:18And there was this rapture.

04:19We didn't really talk about it very much, like some of the groups that I've heard on your podcasts.

04:26But it was there.

04:28It was just this end times.

04:31The world is ending.

04:33And we're going to be the only ones saved unless we can grab a few other people.

04:40And, you know, we were just led into thinking that we were living by the Bible.

04:46The rest of the church people, they don't really live by the Bible because they are regular, normal people.

04:52They live in houses and go to work and raise their families.

04:56But we were special.

05:00And, you know, so it's just pretty messed up.

05:05And it really messed us up too.

05:07You know, being so dependent on a man to make all the decisions for us.

05:15You know, our lifestyle, if we got married, and who we could get married to.

05:22There weren't too many married couples in the group because he didn't allow it after a while.

05:29And the married couples tended to leave.

05:32This was just a little too much.

05:35You know, these kind of groups fascinate me.

05:37I've been starting my research from way back long ago, even in the ancient world, and tracing it through up

05:44into Pentecostalism.

05:45And I'm in the 60s with my research right now.

05:49I eventually want to get into the 70s because the 70s fascinates me, every single aspect of the 70s.

05:55In fact, whenever I'm new to most kinds of music, and I gravitate towards the 70s happy, free music from

06:03the people who have the peace signs and all of this.

06:06I like that era, but from a religious standpoint, it fascinates me for multiple reasons.

06:13So anything that was an offshoot of what I came from, we had all of the elements that you describe,

06:20except for the nomadic elements.

06:24However, my family had this.

06:26So I can relate to some extent because I went to – I lost count.

06:31It's like 13 different schools.

06:32I was born in Indiana, moved everywhere from Arizona to South Carolina in between.

06:38And we had the end of the world, doomsday, everything that you just mentioned.

06:42The rest of the world didn't have it.

06:44We had it.

06:44We were the right ones.

06:46But I have watched documentaries and television shows about the people you're describing.

06:51Maybe not that specific group.

06:53But if I remember correctly, the group you're talking about was – there were some names that they called themselves,

07:00the Body of Christ, if I remember right, the Travelers.

07:03Or I think I saw one newspaper article that called them the Garbage Eaters because –

07:09Yes, that was the one.

07:10I think the National Enquirer coined that one for us because one of our members had lived in Hawaii, I

07:19think, and he survived for a while by checking the dumpsters behind the grocery stores.

07:24And so it's actually pretty good eating, you know.

07:28So it's not exactly garbage, but it is the produce that they throw away and the dairy products, you know,

07:34that are past the date or past on the date.

07:37You know, so there's all these things.

07:39And things aren't really bad.

07:40We didn't eat – we didn't eat spoiled food, quite honestly, you know.

07:44But, you know, when you're not working for money, you know, you've got to eat.

07:52And we weren't the kind that went out and, you know, begged people or sold things.

07:56And there was, if I remember correctly – and again, I may be mixing the groups because I've not really

08:01focused heavily on the 70s yet, but it seems as though I remember there was a strong discipling type aspect

08:08for the movement.

08:09Is that true?

08:10Did your group teach the shepherding, discipling, that kind of thing?

08:14I wouldn't say formally.

08:15I think that all came after.

08:17But the whole – the frame of mind, maybe, you know, I mean, it's just so authoritarian.

08:23Everything was dictated by Jim Roberts.

08:26Everything.

08:27He controlled everything.

08:30And your – what would you call it?

08:33Where your ranking had to do with when you joined the group.

08:38So I joined at the very beginning.

08:42When I came in, I had been – I had been a runaway, teenage runaway.

08:50I was only – I ran away when I was 15.

08:53So I got into drugs and all because I lived in the San Francisco Bay Area and the hippie movement

08:59was the thing.

09:00And so I had been part of that.

09:04And up in a commune that I lived in, up in the mountains, a man came up to tell us

09:10about Jesus.

09:12And that's when I met Jesus.

09:14I had an experience with him.

09:16And then a few of us, in our fear to get away from the evil of the San Francisco Bay

09:23Area, we took off in a car and headed towards Minnesota.

09:30I made it as far as Missoula, Montana.

09:34I went into an Assemblies of God coffee house and got baptized in the Holy Spirit.

09:42But then got tempted and, you know, got back into drugs again.

09:48And I was in a very, very bad place after an LSD trip.

09:54And somebody told me about this house in Missoula called Jesus House or House of Jesus, something like that.

10:01So I went there.

10:03And Jim Roberts had just found that too, like, I don't know, a week or two or something before I

10:11showed up.

10:12And the former leader of this little group, which was true, it was a Jesus people group, but it was

10:18not so authoritarian at all.

10:20Well, they'd go out every day and witness at the university and all.

10:28Well, anyway, he had, that man had a dream that Jim Roberts was supposed to preach for 40 days and

10:3640 nights.

10:37And then we were all supposed to assemble and travel down to California where he was going to be.

10:44So that's what happened.

10:46And on the way down, Jim Roberts and another man who had been leading that little group, like co-leading,

10:56they got into a discussion.

10:58It seems to me now, looking at hindsight, that perhaps this was a little bit manipulated.

11:04Maybe Jim Roberts kept his true beliefs to himself until he had an opportunity to manipulate himself into being the

11:13leader.

11:13I don't know for sure, but kind of think about it.

11:16Like, so he and this man, they got into a discussion and Jim Roberts revealed that he didn't believe in

11:22the Trinity.

11:22He was oneness.

11:24And this man, of course, was pretty traditional Christian and they got into a disagreement.

11:30So when we met up at the campsite where this other man was in Northern California, they decided to present

11:39both sides to everybody and everybody could make their decision.

11:44Well, the other man was older.

11:47He had children, was married, and Jim Roberts was about 30.

11:52And he was very dynamic, charismatic, persuasive, and, you know, talking to a bunch of idealistic teenagers, basically all of

12:01us.

12:01I was the youngest, but others, you know, had just been in university for, you know, a year or two.

12:08And so they were, you know, we're talking about 19, 20, 21 year olds.

12:12And so very idealistic.

12:15And he's talking about how we're going to live just like the early church and we're going to, you know,

12:20do all this great stuff for God.

12:22And we have the right beliefs and all that.

12:26Because after all, Acts 2.38 says, baptize in the name of Jesus, right?

12:31So we're the ones.

12:36Like I said, it's very much similar to what we came out of.

12:39Obviously, we were, at least my version of Branhamism, we were one as Pentecostals.

12:43Branham was all over the place.

12:44But the other thing that I think I'm hearing in what you're saying, and if I remember right from the

12:50documentaries that I've seen, there was this idea of radical obedience.

12:55And the radical obedience was striving towards a perfection.

12:58And it was a doctrine of perfectionism because to be the elite chosen ones, you had to be perfect.

13:05And if you were perfect and you go on this journey, then you're basically going to journey into heaven.

13:10For you, it was like a road trip.

13:11For my version, my flavor of Branhamism, and there were multiple flavors, we had the same thing.

13:17And our journey was to eventually land with this great tent meeting.

13:21And if we were perfect when we entered the tent where Branham was going to be there and give us

13:26our new bodies, we would go into heaven.

13:27So, there are so many similarities.

13:32And, you know, me saying that, I'm an adult man.

13:35I just turned 50 yesterday.

13:37So, yesterday was my birthday.

13:39And you can celebrate birthdays now.

13:42I can celebrate birthdays, which I kind of could in the cold.

13:45But as a 50-year-old man, saying something like that, it's a little bit embarrassing because it's so foolish.

13:52But when you are indoctrinated like this to believe that it's the absolute truth and you must be perfect, your

13:59focus is actually more on the perfect than you are of how absurd all of it sounds.

14:03And so, you get so wrapped up and caught up in it.

14:06And for 37 years of my life, I did this thing.

14:09I'm glad that my family got out.

14:10But there are a lot of issues that come with that radical obedience doctrine.

14:16So, I'm sure you and I share some of the same horror stories about it.

14:21Yeah, that's good.

14:22I'm glad you caught on that.

14:24I hadn't really focused on that.

14:25However, our first Bible study we ever had was on being perfect.

14:32And so, that was definitely that hanging over us all the time to be perfect.

14:37And part of being perfect was being perfectly obedient, like you said, as obedient to Jim Roberts, making sure that

14:45we looked good, you know, before him, that we didn't mess up where he could see us or anything.

14:50And just fear, so much fear.

14:55Why?

14:55I don't know.

14:56I really don't know why we had so much fear.

14:59But because of all that, when we had that split, which was actually basically just the beginning of Jim Roberts'

15:07group, well, there were, I don't know if there was anybody had been in the group longer than me, maybe.

15:14But nobody stayed who had been, as far as a woman, was definitely women and men, very, very separate.

15:21And I was the oldest sister.

15:23And I became quite the Nazi.

15:25I am so embarrassed about that.

15:27And I think some people that I've hurt, that I did hurt, and they're going back 50 years now, you

15:32know, I don't think they even want to talk to me.

15:35Because I did start, back in 2000, I started a Yahoo group for the people coming out of it.

15:45But then Yahoo groups closed down and another member started a Facebook group.

15:49So we have that going on, and we have some discussions.

15:54But a lot of people just don't really want to talk about it, you know.

15:59Some people had good experiences, and they think Jim Roberts was pretty nice because when they were cold, he gave

16:06him a sleeping bag or something like that.

16:07And, yeah, there were times when he did look over us, kind of like a father.

16:13But, no, for the most part.

16:16We're all, I mean, you know, we're dirty all the time.

16:20We're, you know, well, women didn't have to go scrounge in the dumpsters.

16:24But, you know, we're living in campgrounds, hitchhiking.

16:28We're not able to shower and get clean clothes all the time.

16:31And I just imagine getting into some of those cars that picked us up.

16:35They must have just held their noses, you know.

16:38Had to be bad.

16:39The thing that tipped me off on the perfectionism, you mentioned some of the people who'd been in it longer

16:45had higher rank.

16:47Well, in a movement like this, I use the word shepherding and discipleship because I know the framework, and it

16:55is an authoritarian framework.

16:56A lot of people can't recognize it until they're really trying to understand the architecture of how it works.

17:04But discipleship is often not enforced, but it's measured.

17:09It's like it's encouraged.

17:10You want to be perfect.

17:11You must be perfect.

17:13And they don't say this as a doctrine.

17:15But what they do is they give you the if you're not perfect, here's what happens.

17:19And they'll go off and they'll try to enforce it like this.

17:21So there's this pivot where devotion becomes evidence of your perfection.

17:27And that's how, like my group, they would never say that they were discipling.

17:32But a lot of what they did was exactly this.

17:34If you did not conform to the norms of the group think, if you went outside of this, they would

17:42maybe not preach at you, but they would preach about those people who do this.

17:47And you know who they're talking about, right?

17:49They're talking about you.

17:50And so discipleship is kind of measured by the negative of the discipleship program.

17:58In other words, you're somebody who's not fitting the norm.

18:01Those are the people that get preached at.

18:04And knowing the history of the group, at least from what you've said and what little bit I know, there

18:09was this, you know, to travel like this, you have to give up a lot.

18:13You're giving up all your possessions.

18:14And those who had any ties back to their possessions, well, those aren't the chosen ones.

18:21They're of the world.

18:23As I understand it, that's how the mindset was.

18:26Is that correct?

18:27Oh, and another doctrine, which really impacted us because we were young, was Jesus said you had to hate your

18:35parents and hate your mother and father.

18:37And we took that very literally.

18:40But, you know, you really can't.

18:42I mean, in your heart of hearts, you don't hate your parents.

18:46And so, but there was always this thing, well, we, but we can't communicate with them unless they come to

18:52join us.

18:53You know, and when that, no, that wasn't going to happen.

18:59So, it was, it was always very difficult.

19:03You know, the consequences, like in your congregations, you got preached at.

19:08No, our people got kicked out.

19:11So, there they are, kicked out, off literally to the side of the road with nothing but maybe a change

19:17of clothes and a toothbrush and a tent, maybe, or a sleeping bag.

19:22That's awful.

19:23And, you know, there was, it was really bad.

19:26And I think somebody, it's, I've probably heard it on some of your podcasts, the same kind of dynamic where

19:33somebody is shamed and called out or whatever, and everybody stays silent.

19:38Nobody says a word.

19:39So, I remember the first sister that got kicked out, she didn't even know why.

19:45And he's just berating her and going on and on, and she's thrown out.

19:50And no, we, none of us said a word.

19:54And there she was, on her own, sent out.

19:59I don't know what happened.

20:00It's awful because in a group like that, and again, we share so many similarities between what you had and

20:07what I escaped.

20:07But obedience becomes the measure of salvation.

20:11It isn't faith in Jesus Christ.

20:13It isn't anything biblical.

20:15It's obedience, and I'm talking specifically obedience to the leadership.

20:19Whatever is the leader's opinions, his doctrines, whatever he, how he interprets the Bible.

20:24If you disagree with them on how they interpret the Bible, well, you're disagreeing with God, my brother, my sister.

20:29That's how this was, right?

20:31So, the measurement of your salvation is literally based on your obedience.

20:36Yes.

20:37And obedience to what?

20:39I mean, he was really a very ignorant man.

20:42He really was.

20:44He knew nothing but the King James Bible and what he had learned in his United Pentecostal Church.

20:51And that's extremely narrow understanding of the Bible and of history, of the nature of God, of the love of

21:01Jesus.

21:01We knew nothing about that.

21:03All we knew was judgment and harshness and obedience.

21:06And if we didn't, it was bad.

21:13And he had the nerve to change his name to Brother Evangelist.

21:18Really?

21:20I think that was from Pilgrim's Progress.

21:23Wow.

21:24I had no idea.

21:24So, we called him Brother Evangelist.

21:27You know, again, there's so many similarities.

21:30There were doctrines that we had about how your spiritual significance is tied to your name.

21:36And there were names we weren't allowed to name our children because of this.

21:39And there was heavy focus given on to the reason why Abraham changed his name to Abram, Sarah to Sarah.

21:47And so, we had some very similar things.

21:49But the thing that fascinates me the most, I think, when I read about your group, and there's some others

21:55like yours that were kind of emerging at the same time, largely because of the doctrinal platforms that was created

22:04and laid down, not only by Branham, but many other people in that same type of movement.

22:08The people who hit the roads were actually enacting the doctrines that, as they were being taught by the Laterine

22:16movement and post-World War II healing revival, they were enacting the logical conclusions to those doctrines.

22:23While the rest of them just kind of fizzled out and faded into other different doctrines, groups like yours were

22:31actually doing the things that, if their doctrines were to come to their fruition, you had to become like this.

22:38You had to leave everything.

22:39You had to become isolationist.

22:41We were isolationist only in our minds.

22:45But think of a traveling road group.

22:46You are it.

22:47You're the last ones.

22:48And you're in a lost and dead world.

22:51You're on a journey that nobody else in the world can go on with you.

22:54So you were living out what we were creating as a bedrock foundation of doctrine.

23:00Yeah.

23:01So Jim Roberts, before he came to Missoula, Montana, he had actually – his church was – where he grew

23:06up was Paducah, Kentucky.

23:09And he had traveled around to probably people in those circles, United Pentecostal Church circles,

23:16and looking for people who were willing to sell everything, to sell out and be sold out for Jesus.

23:22And, you know, it was a little hard to find.

23:26But us, you know, hippie types, sure.

23:30I've mentioned this before on the podcast, but one of the cult pastors goes to my grandfather,

23:35not the grandfather who was at Branham's Tabernacle as the head pastor, but the other one,

23:40and said, you must sell everything you have and give it to the poor.

23:43And my grandfather looked at him straight in the eye and said, look, man,

23:46if I give everything I have to the poor, then I'm the poor.

23:49You're going to turn around and give it back to me.

23:51So he was thinking logically, but the doctrines were there.

23:55And I don't think people today realize how widespread some of these doctrines are.

23:59They would say things like this, knowing full well that most of their congregation

24:03is not going to give everything that they have to the poor.

24:06But they would preach it with such intensity that you would think you have to.

24:10And again, you had these groups springing up and emerging that when you're in a doctrine

24:15that is teaching you that your salvation is tied to the works that you do, and people are

24:23giving you ideas like this of things that the Bible said about works that you should do,

24:27and then the rapture hasn't happened, that people haven't seen the end of the world.

24:32Well, now the next logical step of this is, well, we're not doing enough.

24:36The burden is on us.

24:37If we're going to be taken to heaven, we have to go further.

24:40We have to go deeper.

24:41So groups like yours were actually just taking what we had and bringing it to perfection.

24:47The doctrines that we had, they were bringing it to perfection, which is really odd if you

24:50think about it.

24:53So we ended up getting out because Jim Roberts had heard, there was always this little envy

25:02stuff, especially with the brothers, the positioning, you know, who's going to have the most clout

25:07or whatever.

25:08You know, at one point, Jim Roberts actually named someone else as a kind of a co-leader,

25:13his, you know, but then he demoted him not very long after because he really couldn't

25:18share the power.

25:21So anyway, there was talk amongst some of the brothers against my now ex, accusing him of

25:28the most absurd things that some were partly true, but they were absolutely ridiculous.

25:36And, you know, in this culture, like you're taught that, you know, whatever is not of faith

25:44is sin and you don't speak of doubts.

25:46You just don't talk about those things.

25:48So we didn't.

25:49Even being married, we didn't talk about things.

25:53But when those accusations came, he started talking to me and telling me what happened

25:58because he was like, like on the brink of being kicked out, you know, and when I heard

26:06all these things and his side of it, which if the accusations were ridiculous, I just knew

26:15that, you know, they were wrong and Jim Roberts was wrong.

26:20Horrors.

26:20Jim Roberts be wrong.

26:23We, you know, we, we looked at him.

26:25I don't know how or why, but he was the voice of God.

26:29And I guess it's the same with Branham too, but, you know, he was the voice of God for

26:34our life.

26:35How could he be wrong?

26:36So I started praying for him.

26:39And it's like, that was so weird.

26:40I'd never even thought of praying for him before.

26:43You don't pray for God.

26:44I mean, you know, he's perfect.

26:47I don't know why we thought he was.

26:48But anyway, after, you know, we were having conversations and Jim Roberts never apologized

26:56because, you know, a truly, a true Christian does admit their faults and they do apologize

27:02when they're wrong.

27:03But no, there was no, nothing from him.

27:05So we made a decision to leave and we were given, believe it or not, we asked permissions.

27:11We asked permission to go out on the road.

27:14And so we did.

27:15That's how we got away.

27:16Oh, one thing I was going to say before was when we were all dirty and hitchhiking all

27:20the time, we actually found him.

27:23We and some other people found him at different times coming out of bus stations.

27:29And we realized, oh, that's why he's always nice and clean and neat, you know.

27:34And you know how a military person dresses.

27:37They always dress very neatly and they always have their pant, their shirt tucked into their

27:41pants and they're always very neat.

27:42And that's the way he always was.

27:44We weren't, but he was.

27:46And so it's like, okay, so we're hitchhiking cross country with babies in horrible weather,

27:53in horrible situations, no money, maybe a couple of dollars.

27:57And here he's taking a bus.

27:59I wonder what else he's doing.

28:01Is he taking planes?

28:03You know, is he's finding places to shower and keep himself all nice and clean?

28:09Hmm.

28:10So it kind of started leaking out that there was another side to him.

28:14And when we got away, we spent a few days writing a letter, knowing that everything we said

28:23would be just examined under a microscope and refuted.

28:28So we tried to cover every single base that we could without accusing or incriminating anybody

28:34else, just what we'd observed.

28:39And here's the funny part.

28:41We sent this letter.

28:42The way we got mail was it would go to the general post office, whatever city we were all

28:47heading to.

28:48And so somebody would go get it.

28:50And we put clearly on that envelope for Jim Roberts' eyes only.

28:56Well, Jim Roberts was out of town.

28:58He wanted to know our letters.

28:59So the next older brother got the mail and read it to him.

29:04Well, then he was in the doghouse because he knew all the stuff.

29:07And he was kicked out not long after that and told us that everything we said, you know,

29:13was all we were just talked really bad about, you know, and here we'd been the older brother

29:18and sister for years.

29:19And we were in the doghouse.

29:22Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started or how the progression of

29:28modern Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter reign, charismatic, and other fringe

29:33movements into the new apostolic reformation?

29:36You can learn this and more on William Branham Historical Research's website,

29:42william-branham.org.

29:44On the books page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins, Charles

29:49Paisley, Stephen Montgomery, John McKinnon, and others, with links to the paper, audio,

29:56and digital versions of each book.

29:58You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those

30:04movements.

30:04If you want to contribute to the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the

30:09Contribute button at the top.

30:11And as always, be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening

30:16to or watching.

30:17On behalf of William Branham Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support.

30:22Earlier, you were talking about the urgency, the coming apocalypse, the fear doctrine that

30:30they were teaching.

30:31I don't think many groups realize how dangerous that is.

30:35I remember whenever I first came out of that mindset, part of the reason why I came out of

30:40that mindset was Martin Luther, the man who really started the Protestant Reformation,

30:45the reason why we have these churches, he said something to the effect, and I wish I could

30:50find it.

30:51Someday I need to go back and find this.

30:53But he was talking about the hell doctrines that the Catholic Church were using as a fear-based

30:59tactic to keep people in.

31:00And he says, I don't know why anybody would want to preach this.

31:04He says, if you are preaching about hell, not a single person in the congregation wants

31:09to go there, nobody's interested in it.

31:12Let's preach about the good things.

31:14Let's talk about the good things.

31:15And I'm paraphrasing greatly, and I may be slaughtering it to somebody who knows Martin

31:19Luther.

31:20But the essence of what he's saying was this.

31:23If you try to preach the fear doctrines, you're doing it only for the purpose of control.

31:29And whenever I look at the group that you came out of, the group that I came out of,

31:32they frame this end-of-days theology.

31:35It's like a whip.

31:36It's like a taskmaster's whip.

31:37They frame it such that you're so scared that you're going to be caught up in this.

31:42And then they beat you over the head with it every Sunday.

31:44I was beaten over the head every Sunday for 37 years.

31:48But more to the point, while you're in that fear...

31:51It makes sense why you were brainwashed.

31:52So you can't be too hard on yourself, because that was your whole world.

31:57Absolutely.

31:58But while you're in that framework, you're so caught up in the fear and how to avoid

32:04it, the perfection doctrines, whatever they mix in with that fear, you're so caught up

32:08in it that there's not really time to think about what's being said.

32:11And the leadership uses this to their advantage.

32:14If they can keep you bound by fear, if they can keep you caught up trying to do the better

32:20things so that you can be better than the rest of the Christians down the street, then

32:24you can't think about the things that they said and determine how wrong they are.

32:28And, you know, some of them even push it even further than this.

32:32If you are thinking about, critically about anything that we said, well, that's the devil

32:37in you.

32:37That's the spirit of the devil in you.

32:39So many groups have this kind of thing, but it's that urgency that keeps you bound.

32:43Yeah, so much fear.

32:46So when I got out, it wasn't easy.

32:54But I could not read the King James Bible because that's the only Bible I had been reading, and

33:01I couldn't read it without hearing Brother Evangelist's voice and all his, the grid that

33:08we read it through with all that fear and the literalism, because we thought, well, you

33:14have to take it literally, but hello.

33:18We don't take the book of Revelation totally literally, do we?

33:21No.

33:23So there's a lot of things, a lot of different genres in the Bible that are not meant to be

33:30taken absolutely literally.

33:32And we don't even know, well, especially in the group, but in our world, we don't know

33:38the idioms that Jesus used.

33:40That's why sometimes things don't make sense.

33:42But in his time, it meant, this is what it meant.

33:46You know, this was common knowledge.

33:49Absolutely.

33:50I spent, I can't tell you how many years just trying to understand exactly that, because

33:55there were things that were used as whips in our minds that Jesus was using as a metaphor

34:00right down to when he's talking about the weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth.

34:05He's literally talking about a literal valley where you took your people who were too sick,

34:09who were about to die, some of them dead, but many of them would later die, and they're

34:14laying there, they can't do anything.

34:16There's weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth.

34:18It was a physical place, and he was using it as a metaphor, and they've turned that into

34:22something entirely different.

34:24Well, then it got the Valley of Gehenna?

34:27Gehenna?

34:29You know, it got translated into hell.

34:32Well, how come there's several words that are translated hell, and they mean different

34:38things?

34:39So, there's questions.

34:41But, you know, if you're so afraid of hell, you're not going to question it.

34:44Well, that's just it.

34:45And I'm not saying that there's not a hell.

34:47There are arguments for both sides, and I've read both arguments.

34:49But the point I'm trying to use, trying to make is, you can take something without understanding

34:55its context.

34:55You can take it, and you can create a whole doctrine on top of it.

34:58And then when you do this, now you have a doctrine that isn't really biblical, but yet

35:03it reads like it's biblical, and people can't see the difference unless they take the time

35:08to study what are those idioms, what are those metaphors.

35:11The funniest Bible teaching, I guess you could say, that we ever had in the group, and it

35:19all was because of Jim Roberts being from the South and his ignorance.

35:24He's reading a verse.

35:26We're all mostly college-educated people.

35:29I wasn't, but I was still intelligent.

35:32We're all standing there looking at our Bibles while he speaks and translates it.

35:37So crazy.

35:39The prophet said to set on a pot and seethe pottage.

35:44He meant that to be, you set, like in the South, you set, you sit.

35:51You sit on the pot, and you will seethe pottage.

35:55No, it's not what it said.

35:59And so we're all looking at each other, and it's like, hmm, but we, you know, we dare not

36:03say anything.

36:04Can't say anything at the time, anyway.

36:06Next morning, we saw somebody who was a Bible student from before he came to the group, and

36:13he's talking privately to Jim Roberts, and then the next thing we know, he's walking off,

36:17and that's it.

36:18Never saw him again.

36:19You know, you can't contradict the prophet or the evangelist.

36:26And if he, if any, in other times when people did talk to him and he did receive it, he

36:32would

36:33gather us together and say, I wouldn't want any of you to misunderstand, and then he would

36:37re-teach it more correctly.

36:40But it was our fault.

36:41We might have misunderstood.

36:44Well, and it's all of that framework where the central figure is the spiritual authority

36:50on doctrine and scripture, and more than that, you use a different word, I think, but we call

36:55Branham the voice of God.

36:57In Word of Faith, you've got the rhema, you've got all these different words, but it's essentially

37:01the same thing.

37:02This is God speaking.

37:03This is not man.

37:04And so anything that's said can't be a mistake, but what happens when it is?

37:09Yeah.

37:10So I always had a hunger for the Bible, and, you know, I had mentioned to you in our correspondence

37:16that I had gone to Christ for the Nations, and I know that's integrally tied in, which

37:21I had no idea.

37:22And Gordon, what was his name?

37:25Anyway, Lindsay.

37:27Yeah, that he'd been part of Branham, because I knew nothing about Branham.

37:30I had heard about Branham one time and heard that there were these churches that listened

37:35to his tapes, and I thought that was very strange, but I had no idea what more we had, well,

37:39what

37:39we had in common.

37:40We didn't have that in common at all.

37:41But, yeah, so I did go to Christ for the Nations, actually, for only one semester.

37:46That didn't work out.

37:49Later, I did get a bachelor's with a master's in theology, but I always had a hunger to dig

37:55into the Bible and see what it really says and what it means, and so I'm really glad

37:59I did.

38:00Well, let's talk about that for a second, because with a nomadic group, there's this

38:04other problem, which is similar to what we came from.

38:07If you join the group and you're nomadic, it's impossible to go to college.

38:11So if you have children who are of an age to go to school, you kind of can't let them

38:16go to school, and at the same time, if your group is like ours, you're actually preaching

38:20against the schools, so you want to take them out.

38:23And that's literally how, I want to say, literally 80% or maybe more of the Branham

38:29cults were.

38:30They were so heavily against education.

38:32I was unusual, because I was one who got to go to school, public school.

38:36But in a group that you're in, were there a lot, you mentioned a lot of college people.

38:40What about the student age members?

38:43Were they ever taught?

38:44No, there were very, no, there weren't, there were hardly any children, and no children

38:48of school age.

38:50Everybody left before then.

38:52Yeah.

38:53Well, one of the things that might be similar that I'm not 100% sure of with our groups

38:59was the treatment of women.

39:02It wasn't, it was just the subjugation, the treatment and the teaching of women being subject

39:08to their husbands and being submissive.

39:10It was just really, it was so oppressive for women.

39:13It was really bad.

39:16Not too long after I'd gotten married, Jim Roberts called the married brothers, there were a few

39:23others at the time, together and had a talk with them.

39:28Um, I, probably something about keeping your women in line or something to that effect.

39:34Because my husband actually took me off into the woods and spanked me with a stick.

39:40And I have no idea why.

39:43And I think it was just to make sure that I knew who the boss was.

39:48But, um, that's why we're divorced, is because of his abuse.

39:53Um, because it's, you know, it was continual.

39:58And, uh, you know, the, you know, one of the things that you're doing that's so valuable

40:04is seeing not just the, where things came from, but where they're going, where they've

40:08gone and permeated Christian culture, American Christian culture anyway.

40:14But there were so many pastors that I had and, um, teachers on the radio or whatever that,

40:22you know, I would talk, try to talk to, talk to about the abuse.

40:26And they would all say I had to stay.

40:29I had no grounds for divorce.

40:31And, you know, it got to the point where I was losing my mind because I have a mind.

40:39And I, sometimes I would pray, you know, God, just give me a lobotomy because I just can't

40:43be this robot that has to just obey every single thing that I'm told.

40:47And, uh, without thinking, without figuring out stuff on my own.

40:53And, um, I mean, after all, I'm running the household with five children at the time,

40:58at the end, before I left.

40:59And, uh, no money, hardly, you know, very, lived in a lot of poverty.

41:04So, I had to be pretty smart about it.

41:07And, um, it was just horrible.

41:09I finally got to the point where, you know, God, I can't live like this.

41:14And I just sat down with my Bible and a notebook and the daily bread.

41:20Devotional.

41:21And, um, the first story was amazing because it was my story.

41:28It was, well, from another perspective, it was a man telling his story about how he knew

41:34his father loved his mother because of all the things he did for her.

41:39And mine did nothing for me.

41:40He didn't lift a finger at the house.

41:43Nothing.

41:44So, but there were all these specific things that this man's father would do for the mother

41:49that were specific things that my husband refused to do for me, which just put me in tears.

41:56And I just knew, you know, God, you just ordained this moment.

42:00And it just broke me.

42:02And so, I spent about six weeks continually seeking the Lord, reading the Bible, writing

42:09down what he was showing me, um, writing down my experiences of abuse daily.

42:19And, uh, till I was completely convinced, especially by so many scriptures that even know were in

42:26the Bible so many times, how God loves the widow and the orphan.

42:30Can you believe it?

42:31God's speaking to me day after day, how he loves and cares for the widow and the orphan.

42:36And I realized that I'm not loved.

42:40I'm not cared for.

42:42My children aren't either.

42:44And I know that regardless of what all these other pastors have said, and Bible teachers,

42:50you know, focus on the family was a big one.

42:54I know that God says, I do not need to stay in this.

42:58In fact, it's bad for me to stay in this.

43:01Because I realized I was teaching my children, teaching my girls how to be a wife to an abusive

43:08husband, teaching my son how to be an abusive husband to his wife.

43:12It's like, I don't want my children thinking this is normal.

43:16And so I had to get away.

43:18And just because I'm saying all these bad things, I do have to tell you that my ex-husband and

43:24I are now friends.

43:26Um, he does a lot of things for me now.

43:28He works around the house for me.

43:30It's really great, you know, to just, and to just be neutral.

43:33And, you know, we realized we have five children and we have gatherings and everything.

43:38It's kind of silly that we should not be friendly and there's no reason not to be.

43:43And he is apologetic for the way that he behaved.

43:47So, not that I'm getting married to him again, but, but I forgive.

43:54It's, you know, it's a lot easier to live with forgiveness than resentment.

43:57It really is.

43:58Just let it go.

44:00You know, I, one of the churches that we attended, the minister, this was the day that we stopped attending.

44:07He preached a whole sermon on how, um, if you're part of the bride, the elite group, we called ourselves

44:13bride.

44:14That was our cult name.

44:15But if you're part of this elite group, you won't like anything on the outside.

44:19You won't like the people on the outside.

44:20And he went so specific as to say, my family often asked me, how come I never come around?

44:28How, how come I never see them?

44:29And he says, it's simply because you don't believe our message.

44:33If you believed our message and believed our profit, we would, we would participate in everything that you have as

44:39an event.

44:39But since you don't, we won't.

44:41And that's the moment in which we left.

44:44We're, we're no longer, we're no longer that cultish, but groups like yours, we're taking that to whole new levels.

44:51You know, you're going on road trips.

44:53You can't even possibly go see the, go see your parents.

44:57And the thing that really hit me as that minister at that time, I was still actually in the group.

45:03I, it wasn't long until after that, that I left the whole thing all together.

45:06But at that point in time, I was thinking, you know, Jesus never called people.

45:10He called people to follow.

45:12He never called them to disappear.

45:13And so there wasn't this idea that you would join Jesus.

45:17And I know the passage that you're talking about, about, you know, if you, if you follow Christ, you'll, you

45:23come to, I can't remember the exact verbiage.

45:26But you come not to love the mother, not to love the father.

45:30Well, you can't balance that with the, the commandments that he gave that, and the examples that are given all

45:37throughout the Bible about love your mother, love your father, you know, obey your father, obey your mother.

45:42If you can't reconcile it, it's not a doctrine that makes sense.

45:45And I kept thinking along those lines.

45:47And basically what was happening is I was critically thinking about everything I've been taught.

45:51But, but then it really hit me.

45:54And this is part of the reason why I finally decided to leave.

45:56When you're in that type of leadership where there's one person who has the full authority, it, he is essentially,

46:04he has become your God prophet to your people.

46:07And God prophet, meaning he's claiming to be human, but he's also your God.

46:11That's essentially what it is.

46:13It becomes leader-mediated, obedient, silver scripture.

46:17And I just couldn't go there once I recognized that.

46:21So I never really severed my family like, like they wanted us to in some of the groups.

46:27I was always friends with people, even if they weren't part of it.

46:30But groups like yours took it to whole new extremes.

46:33And I'm thankful to listen to stories like yours where you were able to come out of that mindset.

46:39If you could give some advice to other people who were in that mindset, what advice would you give them?

46:45God is so much better than you can even imagine.

46:48He's so loving.

46:50He is love.

46:52Everything about him is love.

46:53And if you find things like you were just saying, contradictions, how to rethink God's nature is love.

47:01And he loves us so much, more than you can even imagine.

47:08And he wants only good things for us.

47:11And he's not a harsh, punitive, angry God ready to just get rid of us with any infraction.

47:22You know, the search for perfection, like you, you nailed it.

47:26I can't remember exactly what you said, but it's nebulous.

47:28That's the way I have felt.

47:30You know, you try, try, try to be perfect.

47:32And you finally realize, well, what is perfect?

47:36Okay, if I don't make any mistakes, maybe.

47:41But it's just impossible to really define, especially if you're trying to go farther than the physical realm, right?

47:49In the spiritual realm, like, what is this perfection?

47:53For a human, no.

47:55Jesus is perfection.

47:57We're in him.

47:58He loves us.

48:00He died for us.

48:03There's nothing he wouldn't do for us.

48:05And yeah, life is hard sometimes.

48:07I've gone through a lot of hard things besides the group.

48:10I've gone through other hard and the abuse, you know, other things.

48:14And God's always there.

48:16He's always a comfort.

48:18And we just have to rethink the way we've thought about God.

48:23He's not Zeus.

48:25He's not ready to strike us down.

48:27That's a pagan belief.

48:31And I don't know.

48:32Ever since Augustine, I think, you know, we've thought of God as very harsh and punishing.

48:37And I know he is not.

48:40I know he is not.

48:41I know him.

48:42Absolutely.

48:43And one of the things that I was processing as I was processing all of this is the punishment.

48:49Because not only was it a fear-based religion, it was also a punished-based religion.

48:54And much like you described, and I'm not certain that he could have possibly gotten this from Branham,

49:00but Branham did spread this idea throughout the revivals that you need to keep your wife in line.

49:06And his example was, if my wife stepped out of line or one of my daughters stepped out of line,

49:11I would get a barrel slat and I would beat her with it.

49:14And if you understand what a barrel slat is, that's a pretty thick board.

49:18That's not something that's taken lightly, right?

49:20And he would often talk about praising the mothers who are beating their children to the point where there are

49:26welts on the skin.

49:28That is not love.

49:29That's not how you show love.

49:30But yet that's the mentality.

49:33And men would – I know men who took that right down to the literal teaching that he was trying

49:39to give them.

49:40And they would do these kind of things to their wives.

49:42And then the wives were stuck in the religion.

49:45They were trapped.

49:46They – if they were to try to go – in fact, I know people who went to my grandfather

49:51and said,

49:51my husband is beating me, what do I do?

49:55And I know my grandfather sided with the husband who's beating the woman over the woman who's being abused.

50:01So it's horrific.

50:02And that's the type of mentality that this kind of control and manipulation brings you.

50:07So I'm very glad that you got out of that.

50:09But if you could go back and give some advice to yourself back whenever you were just starting into that

50:16journey,

50:16what advice would you give yourself?

50:18You know, all the woulda, coulda, shoulda's.

50:20You know, I've lived there.

50:21I've lived with just embarrassment and beating myself up.

50:26How can I be so stupid?

50:27How can I believe such stupid things?

50:30You know, I mean, I'll go all the way back to the day that I ran away from home.

50:35You know, why did I do that?

50:36Well, my stepdad was trying to molest me and my mother didn't believe me.

50:40So at 15, I knew everything.

50:43So why not leave?

50:45You know, I had an 18-year-old hippie boyfriend, you know, so that was easy for me.

50:52But, you know, I had options that I didn't even see.

50:57So I really can't say.

51:00It's really hard to know.

51:01It's just you got to know God.

51:03You got to know who he is.

51:04And if you, just to follow all the rules of a man, you know, there's a lot of churches, regular

51:12churches, regular denominational churches that are really run cult-like, where whatever the pastor says, that's the way it goes.

51:20And, you know, I'm really, I'm sick of all that.

51:25I've been in it for just too long.

51:27So I don't know what kind of advice, because I don't know.

51:33I don't know.

51:34You know, because when people get sucked into it with the fear, they're not going to listen to anything else.

51:41But for people who've never been impacted by that kind of thinking, praise God, you know, and just get to

51:48know the real true nature of Jesus.

51:51He is love.

51:54And, you know, so don't get caught up in the fear.

51:57You know, we don't know what's going to happen.

51:59We don't know if, you know, from, I got brought into it, into even Christianity by the teaching of like

52:06Matthew 24 and the end of days and thinking this is for us.

52:11Now.

52:12And now I see, hmm, I don't think so, because AD 70 pretty much fulfilled an awful lot of that.

52:19Maybe not everything.

52:21But, you know, I just don't think I need to live in fear.

52:25I think that contradicts what Jesus said.

52:28He says to fear not so many times, right?

52:30You know, so whatever's going to happen, things happen.

52:33Things happen in this world all the time that are terrifying and they're horrible and just bad things.

52:40But we're not supposed to fear, supposed to trust.

52:44And God always comes through.

52:46I can say that 100%.

52:48He always comes through.

52:50So, you know, when I got out of the group, you know, now I don't know if you've probably heard

52:54the phrase, the word, the term deconstruction.

52:59A lot of people come out of these, a lot of different groups like this with a lot of wounds

53:04and they have to deconstruct.

53:06In other words, they have to rethink.

53:07It doesn't mean they're leaving their face.

53:08Some people do.

53:09But not all people do.

53:11When I came out of the group, and it was 1970, I mean, I came out in 78, but I

53:18think it was 1979.

53:20That term wasn't in use at all.

53:24But I did have to rethink and I got healing.

53:28Like what you're doing is part of the healing, the talking about it and the hearing about it, all the

53:33different stories.

53:34Because it helps us to see things with a better perspective.

53:37Well, in 1979, I actually had a vision of a house that had all the building parts, but they were

53:46all in the wrong places.

53:47It was just really bad.

53:49And so I'm asking God, what is this?

53:51And he's telling me, all these building materials, windows, shingles, doors, all the parts, those are all my experiences that

54:02I had in the group.

54:04And they're valuable.

54:05They weren't right, but they're valuable.

54:08But I had to take them apart.

54:10And in taking each part of this building apart, it was like I was discussing things.

54:17My experiences and the doctrines and stuff with other people who had also come out.

54:22A lot of people came out right after we left.

54:25And, you know, one domino falls.

54:27And it kind of was a chain effect.

54:29And so we were communicating on the phone.

54:33This is way back before Internet.

54:37And I got such healing from talking about it myself.

54:41Like people get healing, at least some relief with talk therapy.

54:45It was the same kind of thing.

54:46Just talk it out.

54:47Talk it out.

54:49And when I felt like I had another dream or vision and I saw a foundation, it's like, okay, let's

54:54get the bulldozer.

54:55We're getting rid of this whole thing.

54:57And, nope, God's saying no.

54:59Again, it's because there was a good part of the foundation.

55:03That was my belief in Jesus.

55:06But all those buildings, I didn't have any more visions after that.

55:09But after all those, all the building parts were all valuable.

55:14But they were all in the wrong order, the wrong priority.

55:17So I had to put it back together.

55:19Like my spiritual house is what I figured it was.

55:22I had to put it back together so that it had proper priority.

55:26You know, all those, they were amazing experiences.

55:30It wasn't all just obedience and all.

55:33But, you know, there were times when, you know, we had just sweet fellowship with each other or mini miracles.

55:41You could really call them that.

55:43When you're stuck on the side of the road and the weather is horrible, especially if you have babies.

55:47I mean, you need a miracle.

55:48You need a car to pick you up.

55:49And we had people pick us up and take them into their home and give us a shower, laundry.

55:55And, oh, that was wonderful.

55:58It was wonderful.

55:59And so, you know, we weren't so righteous.

56:04We thought we were righteous by the things we were doing.

56:07No.

56:07But God used those things to teach us lessons.

56:12And we grew.

56:14And that's why we left.

56:17Unfortunately, today, this group is still going on.

56:22It's a small group.

56:23I hear bits and pieces from different people who are in communication with some because they don't like to communicate

56:29with, you know, what would they call us?

56:32You know, us backsliders or whatever they want to call us.

56:36But, you know, you hear bits and pieces that there are some people in communication and they're still living this

56:43nomadic lifestyle.

56:45I don't think they hitchhike anymore.

56:47That's not really the thing to do anymore.

56:48The 70s, it was kind of common.

56:52But they're still holding on.

56:54Oh, and Jim Roberts died.

56:58But they're still holding on to something.

57:00I don't know what.

57:01They have no.

57:03There's no material possessions or anything like that.

57:06So it's not that.

57:07Well, I'm so thankful you were able to get out.

57:10And I thank you so much for sharing your story with us.

57:13I'm very honored to come and be part of what you do.

57:15I found you in my research with one of my professors from Christ for the Nations, Dr. Michael Brown, and

57:25his scandal, which is disgusting to me, that a man that I held in high honor could have no conscience.

57:34It's just, it makes you really think, you know?

57:37It does.

57:38But, anyway, thank you so much for doing this.

57:41If you've enjoyed our show and you want more information or to share your story, you can check us out

57:45on the web.

57:45You can find us at william-branham.org.

57:48For more about the dark side of the New Apostolic Reformation, you can read Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to

57:54the NAR.

57:55Available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.

58:24Available on Amazon, Kindle.

58:54Available on Amazon, Kindle.

Radical Obedience and Spiritual Abuse: A Survivor’s Story | Episode 537

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