- 8 months ago
At the India Today Education Conclave 2026, education leaders highlighted that high enrolment often hides serious learning gaps in India. Despite improvements under NEP 2020 and the NIPUN Bharat mission, learning outcomes decline after primary school, with girls facing higher risks of absenteeism and dropouts. The discussion emphasised the need to move beyond access and focus on learning quality, retention, skilling and livelihood pathways.
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NewsTranscript
00:00Good afternoon everyone. We just heard Union Education Secretary, School Education Secretary
00:08giving us all the diagnosis, the ailments of school education, particularly in India.
00:16And we have two experts who are working on the ground and they know more about what's
00:20happening on the ground. They can probably give us an assessment, as he talked about
00:28assessing learning outcomes. They probably do it on a regular basis. So I'll first start
00:35with Madam Willima Wadhwa. ASER has been assessing the learning outcome particularly and enrollment
00:47as well in school education. And this year's economic survey makes a very important point
00:54that access is fine, but we need to improve the learning outcome. And we heard Mr. Sanjay
01:01Kumar talk about enrollment also dropping at a later stage, which is happening because of
01:08the poor learning outcome in school educations, particularly primary learning. So why is it
01:17happening? This foundational learning, though he talks about improving it in class three
01:24and still it's not at the desired level. And these are numbers he was talking about.
01:31What's the truth on the ground?
01:33So, you know, we started doing ASER, which is the annual status of education report, which is a survey of
01:48learning across the country in 2005. And at that time, nobody was even talking about learning. And, you
01:56know, that wasn't just the case in India, it was worldwide. If you remember the Millennium Development
02:01Goals, we're talking about universalizing enrollment. And, you know, the thinking was that if we build
02:08enough schools, if we have enough teachers, if we manage to get our children into school, then this
02:14fuzzy thing that we call learning is automatically happening. So schooling was equated with learning.
02:22We, and that is not to say that inputs are not important. Like Mr. Kumar said, you, you know,
02:28if you don't have inputs, then you can't have outcomes. But, you know, in 2005, it was almost
02:34like a surrender putters thing, because that year, the finance minister talked about in his budget
02:39speech, he talked about from outlays, shifting the focus from outlays to outcomes. And so, you know,
02:47we started doing ASER at that time. And what we found was that, you know, the problem was not just
02:53limited to the areas that we were working in. Because it was possible that, you know, we were
02:58seeing learning deficits in the areas that we were there, because, you know, well, there was a reason
03:03why we were working in those areas. And what we saw was that this was across the country. The fact that
03:10children were enrolled, even in 2005, before the right to education came into effect, in excess of 90%
03:18children were enrolled in school. So the fact that they were not learning was something that we
03:24thought was important, that we needed to shift the focus in the education discourse on the importance
03:31of learning. And ASER, right from the beginning, has been a foundational tool, right? So we've been,
03:38we focus on foundational literacy and numeracy. The reading tool is a very simple, great two-level tool.
03:45And what we've been finding is that for many years, there was no change. There was a lot of movement
03:53in different states, but the All-India number was difficult to move. So, you know, this is a very
04:00well-known statistic from ASER that 50% children in grade five are unable to read at grade two level,
04:06and that number did not move. We saw movement in states, but for the first time in 2020,
04:15we've seen a big jump. And I think the reason, there are two reasons, really. One is, and Mr. Kumar
04:24talked about it, is that for the first time with the national education policy, we have a systemic goal
04:32across the board. So if you think about teachers, what was the brief to teachers earlier? Complete the
04:38curriculum, right? So if you think about the teacher, and if she's doing her job, she in front of her has
04:46many grades sitting, children of different learning levels, children from different socioeconomic
04:52backgrounds, but her brief is complete the curriculum. And so she's really only teaching a very thin slice
05:00of her class. Now, for the first time, we have a goal, which is across the country. And we've done that before.
05:08We had a goal of universal enrollment, and we are pretty much there. And now we have a systemic goal
05:15across the board. The other very interesting thing, and I think that also goes to the success
05:22of NEP is the fact that it has not been prescriptive. So while we've had a goal that we need 100%
05:34foundational literacy and numeracy under the Nippon Bharat initiative, the policy does not say
05:42that you have to do X, Y, or Z to achieve it. Because what a UP needs is very different from what
05:49are hematial needs. We are a very, very diverse country. And so what we saw since, you know, the policy
05:55was launched in 2020, in the middle of COVID, we had a big learning loss after that, but we've seen on the
06:03ground, lots of movement, different states doing different things. And that you saw in the 24 results. There
06:12was a big jump in reading for grades three and five, we recovered the learning loss, and we were back at
06:20the pre COVID levels. In numeracy, levels surpassed what we had seen before. And this was at the all
06:29India level. Okay, for the all India number to move, pretty much every state has to improve.
06:36So that means in next three, four years, probably we'll see a jump in the outcomes of the upper grade
06:45classes. Will it move towards in that direction? So what we see, here's what we see. Okay,
06:55grade three, grade five really moved. But if you look at grades six, seven, eight, right,
07:02the learning trajectories are flat, what does that mean that there is not that much movement,
07:09or there's not that much value added as you move from grade six to seven to eight. In fact,
07:15Asar shows that even today, 30% children in grade eight are unable to read at grade two level. Now,
07:23to me, actually, that is not surprising. And I'll tell you why. Because if you have reached grade six or
07:30seven or eight without learning to read basic text or without learning to do basic subtraction
07:38or division, then nobody is teaching reading in grade eight, right? Nobody is teaching
07:46subtraction in grade six or grade seven. So the point being that if we don't address,
07:53if we don't address learning deficits, when they occur, then they tend to pile up. And so,
08:01while the new education policy, the new cohorts, we are addressing that, we need to have something
08:08for the higher grades to catch up. Some remedial measures. Educate girls, belated congratulations
08:18for your MaxSA award to your NGO. That's for all of us. So, congratulations to us.
08:27And it says, in the citation, it says that it's known for community mobilization,
08:33in case of girls, education for girls. Now, how do you see the community mobilization working in terms
08:41of improving learning outcomes? And I'm not talking about primary classes only as we go ahead,
08:49because enrollment and outcome dropout both are bigger issues now. But of course, Sanjay Kumar has
08:57said that boys are facing it more now. But traditionally, it has been a bigger issue for
09:02girls students. So, how are you addressing that on the ground?
09:07Right. Let me begin from the beginning. And that is, when we started working in 2007,
09:13we came across a lot of problems, starting from distances that were there to primary schools.
09:19RTE Act had not come then. I mean, it only came in 2009 and started implementing in 2010.
09:25But after the Right to Education Act, a lot had changed. We did see a lot of efforts being done
09:30by the government to get children back into school. And I very proudly say that Educate Girls had been
09:36frontline force to what government had been wanting to do. We worked very, very closely with the
09:41communities, with the school management to see that every child, every girl who's left behind should
09:45be back into school. Having said that, the major problem wasn't really about only about getting the
09:52child back into school, a girl back into school. Girls definitely were more challenging than boys
09:59coming back to school, given that, you know, all other indicators that we look around for female
10:05in the society, that hasn't really changed much. And I'll come to the, you know, the celebrations that
10:10we do that more girls are passing or more girls are transitioning. I'll come to that in a bit. But
10:15it indeed is a challenge to get a girl child back into school and have her stay in the school.
10:19So, I mean, there are two aspects to it that we saw that, yes, while girls were coming,
10:24boys were coming back into school. If you look at absenteeism, that hasn't really improved even
10:29today much. We see as much as 28-29% absenteeism happening in our schools. And I think that's the
10:35real worry, wherein we see engagement and learning. What am I missing today might just affect me entire
10:42learning that would help me transition to the next grade, right? So a lot needs to be done. And
10:47Sanjayji did speak about the adult and child dynamic that happens in the classroom. How should
10:53that be changed? How should different innovative things that we are bringing in should, you know,
10:58come in? We did most of it, like, I mean, right from when we started working on it. So we had this
11:06very, very, you know, unique way of working when we were trying to get girl children back into school.
11:13And every boy who we found out out of school was also supported to come back into school.
11:19We used a very community-based model. And that was called Team Balika, wherein,
11:25I mean, being an NGO, we didn't have resources to work statewide or work district-wide. We actually
11:31chose villages which had problems. And we used artificial intelligence for it, which uses a lot of
11:37secondary-level data and some door-to-door data and mixes it up and gives a list of villages which
11:43have high dropout of girls. Or suppose, I mean, there's a chance that they'll have high dropout girls
11:50there. We got that list from AIML. We did a check in Rajasthan and then UP, Madhya Pradesh, Bihar,
11:58and it was about 80% precision rate. So we were able to find villages where we should focus. And
12:05that's how NGOs can work, the kind of resources we have. And in every single village that we started
12:10working, we identified one youth, a volunteer, whom we used to call Team Balika. And just one person
12:16being called Team Balika because we believe that that one person doesn't, shouldn't really work alone.
12:22From the government, there's lots of forces that's there. There's school management committee,
12:26the school administration. And the person, the volunteer, we give, build their capacities to
12:31work closely with everyone who are part of the ecosystem to make sure that the child's back into
12:35school and stays in the school. And while the child comes into school, we introduce Gyan Kapitara,
12:41which was FLN model of 21 days that helped child to bridge that gap so as to be comfortable and engage
12:47with learning better. Having said that, I mean, all of this was with the primary and I said absenteeism
12:52still high. The transition that's happening from eight to nine standards is still a worry. It's
12:57still very poor. And averages may make us happy. But the villages I'm talking about, districts I'm
13:04talking about, still very high. If we focus in there, it isn't seven percent. It's way, way higher
13:11than that. National averages at times are illusionary as well wherein say, you know, things are improving.
13:16But when you focus at the challenging places, we see it's still a huge problem. And those transition
13:22levels, we were not able to get them back into school, given Sanjaji spoke. Many boys were dropping
13:28out because they were expected to earn and there is a labor policy which allows them to work in non-hazardous
13:34industries. Girls were also dropping out for household chores, for, you know, as simple as
13:40distances or menstrual hygiene, which may not look like a problem. From eight to nine, it indeed is a big
13:45challenge for many of them to stay into school. And we found it wasn't really possible to get all of
13:51them back into school. So we shifted our working style. While we work with the mainstream school,
13:57we also started working with the open school that Sanjaji was mentioning. For those who just cannot
14:03come back to school, should have a second chance. And while we can celebrate more girls are passing,
14:10I mean, there is a very interesting indicator, Sustainable Development Goal 8.6,
14:14which mentions about not in education, employment or training, NEET youth burden globally. India
14:21happens to have high NEET youth burden. And if we look at male female division there, it's
14:27of 13 crore NEET youth burden that we have in 15 to 29 year age category, 9 crore are girls,
14:34females, while 3 crores are male. So what goes wrong if it's more girls passing?
14:39Why are they still not in education, employment or training youth burden? Answer is men still
14:47migrate. Males still have an opportunity to migrate, start working early, start earning early, and they
14:53get trained. And by the time they're 18, 19, they are skilled to maybe, you know, do better. While a
14:59female, with lack of mobility, with lack of opportunity, continues to be at home in unpaid care
15:06work or farm work for which she isn't even recognized or paid for. So we still see that
15:12let's not celebrate that small girl passing. It's still a long way to go and see that more
15:17and more women should be in workforce and that should make us happy.
15:19Absolutely. I'll put this question to both of you. Professor Dinesh Singh was here in the morning
15:26and not just him, many experts have said that national education policy, it's a very fantastic
15:33policy. It can actually, if it is implemented, can make India a knowledge powerhouse, knowledge economy.
15:39So what's preventing the right kind of implementation on ground of this national education policy?
15:50Where is the problem? Investment, infrastructure or the mainstay, if I can say so, the teachers?
15:59Which is the bigger problem? First, Madam Odwa.
16:03I won't say teachers are the main problem. I won't even say infrastructure is the main problem.
16:10I think it has been, we are very large, we are very diverse. Like Mr. Sanjay Kumar said,
16:20it's two crore children per grade, right? And it is, for a long time, we've had one kind of a goal,
16:29which was universalizing enrollment. We've done it. But like Alka said, there are still states where
16:38you know, attendance is a problem. That continues even today. If children don't show up in class,
16:47then, you know, if you don't get the treatment, how are you going to have the outcome, right? So it is,
16:51it is that. But I feel that a change is happening, a lot more needs to be done. I mean, you know,
17:01it's a, it's, it's like they say, it's not economics, it's political economy, right? There are many pieces
17:07that have to fit together. We've been talking about primary education, then we talked about retention,
17:13and, but all of these pieces kind of connect together. So, you know, to give you a little bit,
17:20a small example, we just talked when we, when I was talking earlier that primary, we seem to have
17:28gotten the problem, we are moving towards a solution, there are many different solutions,
17:33different states are doing different things. One of the things that, for example, that the NEP talks
17:37about is something called Vidya Pravesh program, where children, when they enter school in grade
17:44one, they make sure that they are school ready, right? We've also seen these deficits in higher
17:50grades. Why can we not do the same thing, those transition points where dropout happens from grade
17:57five to grade six? When our kids transition, we make sure that they're ready for the next stage to
18:05engage with the curriculum. So, you know, these are, I think, we are moving in the right direction.
18:10It's fine tuning. Hopefully, we have to be patient. Hopefully, the momentum that we saw between 22 and
18:1824 and lots more is happening now. We'll continue to see that. That's very encouraging coming from
18:25watch talks, not from the government. What's your point of view? Well, in very continuation,
18:31I must say, as an organization, when we read, we had also contributed to it when recommendations were
18:37given. And when we looked at new national education policy 2020, it's a fantastic policy. Everything
18:44that we wanted for children we work with, we care for, it's there. And when it comes about
18:50implementation, I think a lot of it is about convergence and requirement for convergence.
18:56Sanjayji spoke about preschool education and school. Earlier, it was with WCD. And then,
19:02you know, it's coming into school ambit now. So that required convergence. Skilling starting from
19:07sixth standard onwards requires convergence. I don't think we did that ever, you know, before. And it's
19:13all new that's coming up. And for such things, where in department works in silos, you ask two NGOs to
19:20work together, that takes a lot of, you know, thinking how would we join hands and work together. So I think
19:25that's going to take time. And it's so, I mean, I met with a few community girls last month, and they
19:33were talking about, they can choose home science now, they can choose data entry now, they can choose.
19:39So the list of subjects as this is happening, right? It isn't like forever, you know, it would happen
19:44later, it has started happening. I think one thing which we ask for is also budget. Say, the very mention of
19:52open schools there. You know, it's any piece very beautifully emphasizes on open schooling and says
19:58that it's meant for those who are socially, economically disadvantaged groups, SEDGs. And
20:05it should reach them because they can't reach mainstream school, they are working elsewhere,
20:09they're working hours and school hours are the same, they can't be in school and learning. So open
20:13school should help them, you know, bridge the gap and then continue learning. While all open schools in
20:18the country work on a fee based revenue generation model, they are expected to raise money through
20:27fee from learners. Why are we expecting SEDGs to pay for school education while it's free for mainstream
20:35school? It's unfair that to us, I think in policy and implementation, there's still a few gaps that's
20:42there. And I'm glad I have this opportunity to say I'm sure government would look into it and open
20:49schools in the country would also be given budget so that that can also be made free for everybody.
20:54See, who's coming to open school, most probably is SEDG, can't go to a mainstream school, please make it
21:01free, it's just school education. It's a simple ask. So she gave a policy session, if it sounds like a
21:08minor tweak, but could have a very massive impact. Any policy tweak from your side that you would
21:15expect from the government? I just, you know, want to add to what she was saying, I mean, in that way,
21:23we need to make, call it skilling, call it vocational, call it TVET. We need to make that aspirational.
21:31It's not, you know, as long as that college degree is aspirational, you're not going to. We have,
21:39Pratham has a big skilling program for every 40, with 100% placement. For every 40 kids we touch,
21:47we get one. Because when you talk to mothers, when you talk to young people, she says,
21:52Why is my son a plumber? Why can't my son go to college? And that can only happen if it is a policy
22:02for all. Right now, what is happening is that this is an alternative route. If you could not make it
22:10academically, then you go to vocational. But that's, then it's not aspirational, right? If we are going to,
22:18he gave us the numbers. If we are going to have one crore kids graduating every year, well,
22:25you know, the, the organized sector doesn't have jobs for so many people. And this is, this is a huge
22:30problem today. And somehow we need to change that mindset. And the only way to do it is get it in all
22:39elite private schools across the board, that you have to have so that, you know, in developed countries
22:46as well, not all kids, doesn't matter what your economic background is, not all kids go to college.
22:51One change that I saw in this budget means, usually we talk about the investment remains
22:57the same from the government side, state governments also do not invest much. But I saw a six full jump
23:04in adult tinkering labs that the government talks about, which is the objective is very fine,
23:09skilling, and helping students to think on their own. Do you think that's the right step? Or do you
23:17say that something more should be done in that direction, not just the investment part?
23:24Well, India must invest in research and development right from early years.
23:29That goes without saying. And we just heard numbers of utter tinkering labs that we are aiming.
23:35Imagine if every grade has two crore children, where is the number we heard. So I think we are still,
23:41it's too late, too little. Let's do more of it. Utter tinkering lab is a fabulous idea,
23:46more and more children should have access to it. More and more schools be given this opportunity for
23:51children to attempt, learn, fail, and then, you know, do it themselves. I think it's too late, too little.
23:58Manu Odwar, do you think that it's working in the right direction? Because government,
24:04Tom Tom's about it a lot, and they have given the funding also.
24:07Like she's saying, it's a little sliver that you are, you know, addressing there. How many labs are
24:13we talking about? At what level? To get to that level, to be able to use the lab, right? You still have to
24:20go through the system and have the labs. You know, there is nothing. So, you know, it's like,
24:27it's a two-tier kind of a thing. You know, education for the masses versus going after excellence. Of
24:33course, have the labs. Nobody's saying don't have the labs. But at the same time, having just those
24:39number of labs is not going to be sufficient. You need to start at the bottom. Why are kids not
24:45working in class five with their hands? Woodwork, whatever. You know, start early so that it is,
24:51it's like any other subject that you have, right?
24:54I would just add to it, it's also about our teachers' training that's happening in the country.
24:59While children would have access to such innovative platforms, do we really have such innovative
25:06training programs for our teachers to actually attempt themselves as well what they are going to
25:13encourage children about? If they are like our age and they have learnt like straight, you know,
25:20conversation, not really looking outside what's written in the book, how can we really expect it
25:26to work only based on what a child's mind, not really getting a mentor around to guide it in
25:31the right direction? That was actually my question when I asked whether there is an issue with the
25:36teacher. Not that our teachers are less qualified, but whether they are getting on-the-job training
25:41and they're progressing. I had a long list of questions, but time is up. Thank you so much,
25:47Alka Singh Ji, William Wadwaji. That was a wonderful conversation and thanks for being with us.
25:54Thank you so much.