- 9 months ago
Frank Cooper, the Chief Marketing Officer at VISA, joins Forbes senior writer Jabari Young on The Enterprise Zone at Nasdaq MarketSite. In the discussion, Cooper talks about VISA's shift away from its partnership with the NFL, the future of marketing, and reflects on his career journey—from Motown Records to stints at BlackRock and overseeing Pepsi's mega deal with Beyoncé.
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LifestyleTranscript
00:00In the world of marketing, being too early is the same as being too late, at least in terms of impact and audience.
00:07Those are the words of one corporate entrepreneur who has quite the career journey from Motown Records to one of the biggest C-suites, one of the biggest brands in all of the world.
00:17We'll explain. You're in the Enterprise Zone at the NASDAQ.
00:21Hello, everyone. This is Jabari Young, senior writer at Forbes, and you're in the Enterprise Zone at the NASDAQ market site.
00:32And I have a special guest. His name is Frank Cooper. He is the CMO of Visa, payment and credit card giant.
00:38Everybody has Visa. I got it in my pocket. You probably have it in yours.
00:41Had a future or past career at BlackRock, also at Pepsi.
00:46Frank, I'm all over the place, man. You're making me a little nervous, man.
00:49Welcome to the NASDAQ, man. I appreciate you coming.
00:51So good to see you, Dwight. Thanks for having me.
00:53Absolutely, Frank. Thanks a lot, man.
00:54Listen, I have to ask you, your first time at the market site, right?
00:58So we're here. You've got to give me a stop.
00:59What has worked well for Frank Cooper all these years?
01:02Don't say Visa either. You can't say Visa.
01:04I won't say Visa. I'm actually not going to pick a stock.
01:06So one thing I learned at BlackRock is that, and it's probably one of the best advice I got from Larry Fink,
01:12is don't try to play the market if you're not a professional doing it every single day.
01:17Play the entire market. And so I'm an ETF person.
01:21Yeah, index funds.
01:22Yeah, so exchange-traded funds is where I would play.
01:26But if I had looked at any individual stocks, I love things that are used every day.
01:30Yep.
01:30Things that are just basic, fundamental, and maybe even slightly boring.
01:35Yeah. You sound like a Procter & Gamble guy.
01:37Huh?
01:37Procter & Gamble guy.
01:38Two-paste everybody. Deodorant everybody.
01:40I'm not going to name anything, but if you use it every day, like payments, that's why I like the payments category.
01:45To me, that's, you know, through the ups and downs, people find a way to kind of maintain those everyday habits
01:52and their everyday routines and rituals.
01:53And so I like investing in those spaces.
01:56I'm getting more into the ETF as well.
01:57You sound like our chairman, Steve Forbes, asking the same question as he says, index funds, ETFs.
02:02And so I'm leaning more into them.
02:04I sold some stock.
02:05I'm like, you know what, let me get out of this and go more index funds.
02:07If you have a long-term view, you can sit back and then enjoy the ride because long-term, you know how it's going to play.
02:12Absolutely.
02:12You know, through all the dips and all the rises, you know, the trajectory is still going to be upward if you're playing the entire market.
02:18Well, how is your crypto portfolio?
02:20I was listening to a podcast you did a few years ago, and I know you wanted to dabble in it a little bit.
02:23Did you kind of get...
02:24It's weak. It's weak.
02:25My crypto is weak.
02:26And, you know, probably because I have the pain of not going in early on Bitcoin.
02:31Because, I mean, I could have come in really, really early at a very low price, had, you know, people who were really connected to that area back in, I guess it was 2015, around that area.
02:42And I didn't do it.
02:43And so, again, I'm probably on the safer side of the equation in terms of where I make the investments.
02:49And so crypto is not a big area for me in terms of my own personal investment.
02:52But a little bit, though, right?
02:54A little bit.
02:54Yeah, I still got to follow you.
02:55I have none.
02:56For sure.
02:57Yeah, I got to get to it.
02:58I'm ahead.
02:59Well, listen, man, how is your 2025 wrapping up?
03:01We're in November, right?
03:02I mean, listen, happy holidays.
03:04I got to start saying that right now.
03:05Happy holidays to you and the family.
03:07How's your 2025 wrapping up?
03:09You were on my colleague Seth Matlin's podcast earlier in February talking to CMO life.
03:14But, you know, you look at your year as a whole.
03:15And, again, we've still got a few months or two months left.
03:18How's 2025 been for you so far?
03:192025 has been a great year.
03:21Visa's fiscal year is October through September.
03:24So we're starting our new year already.
03:25We've kicked it off our Q1.
03:27But 2025 has been an eventful year.
03:30But in the payments category, you know, it's been a robust year.
03:34You know, we're seeing strong consumer spending.
03:37You know, we're seeing strong cross-border travel overall.
03:40You know, we're seeing the kind of continued growth in e-commerce.
03:45I love what's happening in the cultural spaces, particularly in video gaming.
03:48It's still picking up.
03:50And so, for me, it's been an exciting year, both in the payments category, but also marketing.
03:55Yeah.
03:55And marketing in particular, I'm excited about what's happening in agentic commerce.
04:00And a lot of people are fearing that.
04:01I think it should be the marketer's dream, you know, as you start to kind of walk into this new area.
04:08But an area that I think is ripe for marketers who think about the ultimate goal of marketing.
04:13Yeah.
04:13Which is driving profitable growth by changing people's perceptions, emotions, and behaviors.
04:18Most definitely.
04:18And I definitely want to dive into that as well, looking into how the holiday season is kind of looking so far.
04:24See if people are spending.
04:24But before that, what's been your soundtrack, right, music soundtrack to 2025?
04:29Like, what's been the music that's been keeping Frank Cooper motivated?
04:33It's been keeping that executive fire and you burning?
04:35Like, what's been so far?
04:37Again, two months left, right?
04:38But what's been that music that's been holding you together so far?
04:41That's such a great question.
04:42I'll be honest with you, I've gone back in time.
04:45Mm.
04:46And some of it's been driven by AI.
04:49Yeah.
04:49And what I've been thinking is, well, what's uniquely human?
04:52Well, playing live music.
04:54Yeah.
04:55Playing live instruments, being physically proximate to other people.
04:58So I've gone back.
04:59I've been looking at soul music in particular.
05:02Not R&B, soul music.
05:04And I think that the idea of live instrumentation, so from, like, the Teddy Pendergrass to Luther Vandross.
05:10But I'm bringing it forward, too, and looking at, you know, Daniel Caesar and seeing how, you know, how Daniel Caesar is developing.
05:15So live instrumentation, real musicianship, I think that is going to explode.
05:20It's uniquely human.
05:21And AI can inform it, but you can't replace that idea of even the imperfections that happen in it.
05:28You can't replace that.
05:29And so that's been my motivating thing.
05:31And it's something, for me, special about live music.
05:35So I've tried to see as much live music as possible.
05:37I listen to music that's been recorded with real instrumentation.
05:41That's where my head's been in 2025.
05:43It's funny you say Teddy Pendergrass.
05:44Now, obviously, again, we talked.
05:45I'm from Philly.
05:46But just the other day, I was listening to my iPod, and it was on Shuffle, and Harold Melvin and the Blue Notes, I Miss You, came on.
05:55That's right.
05:55I mean, the instrumentation there, the way, oh, man, you want to talk about soul music.
06:00I mean, Teddy took you on home until the last part when he wanted to get his woman back.
06:05I mean, listen, you're taking me off.
06:06I thought you want to say Prince, because, you know, Prince is your favorite NFL Super Bowl halftime show.
06:11It is.
06:11It's raining.
06:11So I'm thinking, like, man, he's going to say Prince.
06:13It is.
06:13I love Prince, and Prince plays live instruments.
06:16But Miss You, Harold Melvin and the Blue Notes, who in the beginning of any song today can just start it with just a yell?
06:24Oh, my God.
06:25That's what it is.
06:25He's not saying any word.
06:27It's just, you know.
06:28Soul.
06:29Soul.
06:29Man, I'm getting, like, man, I want to play it right now.
06:32Man, why are we talking, man?
06:33There you go.
06:33You know?
06:34You walk into a fifth grade class, and somebody says, you know, one of the students raised their hand and says, well, what is it that you do, Mr. Cooper?
06:40Remember, you talked to a fifth grade class.
06:42What do you tell them that you do for a living?
06:43I tell them that, look, I create words, images, sound that motivate you to buy things.
06:55And I can do it across any screen, you know, or any speaker that you have access to.
07:03Yeah.
07:03And so, and the way in which we do it changes over time, but the heart of it is story.
07:09So, if you can tell a great story across these different screens, across these different places of interaction, you know, and that story can be visual or can be by words, that's what marketing is.
07:24That's what we do.
07:25Yeah.
07:25Storytelling.
07:25You always have an audience.
07:26Everybody loves a good story.
07:27They love a good movie.
07:28They love something that's going to, you know, fascinate them.
07:31That hasn't changed.
07:32Right?
07:32It hasn't changed.
07:33I mean, in terms, it's been the primary way of creating meaning for people over the years.
07:36The way you tell stories has changed, but the fact that you're telling a story is still at the heart of it.
07:40Yeah.
07:40I love that.
07:41I love it.
07:41Well, listen, man, we jump into some important news.
07:43And you tell me the story because your league deal, the NFL, expires in March 2026.
07:49And the news has been made that you guys are pivoting away from the bigger league contract and focusing on teams and creators.
07:55It's so funny.
07:56That deal dates back to 1995 when Visa took over the official payment card of the NFL from American Express.
08:03Right now, American Express is saying, give it back to me in a deal which is reportedly worth over $900 million.
08:09But take me inside of the pivot, you know, because I've covered sports business for a number of years.
08:13And I'm always interested in to win brands, bigger brands, when they leave the league partnership and they go over to do more things.
08:20Right?
08:21NBA, NBC, classic example from a media side.
08:24Right?
08:24That's right.
08:24But they always find their way back.
08:26Again, American Express taking back over.
08:28Full circle.
08:28But take me inside of the pivot.
08:29What do you see?
08:30Because somebody as a legendary as yourself, Frank, you don't just do these moves like pivoting away from the NFL league deal.
08:35Yeah.
08:36Look, I mean, we love the NFL.
08:37Yeah.
08:37You know, we think they have great leadership.
08:40It is live sports in general.
08:43It's one of the most powerful platforms out there for any advertiser because you have a large audience of simultaneous viewers.
08:50Hard to find that in today's world.
08:52People are really engaged.
08:54They pay more attention to the advertising.
08:56We love the NFL.
08:58NFL is a great thing.
08:59The pivot we made was that we looked at from a fan perspective.
09:04What do they care about the most?
09:06And so in our analysis, we think they care first and foremost about the team.
09:11Secondly, about the players or the celebrities around the game.
09:16And so we basically said at a certain price point for us, when we look at the opportunity cost of investing in teams and investing in players and other influencers, we thought it was better for Visa and our strategy to not pay the rights fees and to invest it more in teams, players, partnerships, media.
09:37And so what you hopefully will see is that you'll see us go deeper into American football.
09:45We'll go deeper with more teams.
09:47We'll go deeper with more players.
09:49You'll see new partnerships.
09:51We'll spend as much or even more in media.
09:54And so while we won't have the deal for the shield, for the NFL shield, we will be deep in NFL play.
10:02And you'll see that.
10:03We think that for us, that was the right strategy and the right investment approach.
10:07Yeah.
10:08Why now?
10:08Because, again, all these years you were, you did have the shield.
10:11And that partnership grants you exclusive rights, logos, name, colors, anything NFL, all the advertising promotions.
10:18You get the Super Bowl.
10:19So you get the primetime events.
10:20And so, again, pivoting away from that, why now?
10:22What do you see from a marketing trend standpoint?
10:25Because bigger brands are doing it all the time, right?
10:27I mean, they're leaving the legacy media.
10:29They're leaving maybe the bigger league partnerships.
10:32And they're going more with creators, going more with players.
10:34What are you seeing that, you know, everybody at Visa felt comfortable to make this move?
10:38Well, look, I mean, I think every company, including Visa, you have to make a decision about how much, what's your threshold for making these payments?
10:48You're looking at inflation on these properties.
10:50Big sports properties are about an 8.5% CAGR every year of increase, right?
10:55So at a certain point, you just have to take that increase and put it right beside your strategy and tactics, but also the other alternatives that you have.
11:04And so for us, we thought that a better approach for us at a certain price point was to go down this alternate path, but also it opens up additional opportunities for us to play deeper in other spaces, whether that's video gaming or music or the creator platform in general.
11:22And so for us, we just looked at a certain price point, we thought the alternatives were better for Visa.
11:28And there's no, you know, other companies, you know, may make a different decision because their strategies may be different.
11:33But for our strategy, where we are fan-focused and working back from the fan to how we make the investment, we think this is the better path for us.
11:42Yeah.
11:43How about the trend?
11:44Any trend that you see from a marketing standpoint that maybe you're paying attention to that maybe a lot of people, CMOs, are not talking about in your world?
11:51Well, there's a bunch of trends happening in my world.
11:53I think I'm not sure.
11:55What's the number one of two things?
11:56I'm not sure if they're not paying attention to it, but you have to be monotically focused on it.
12:00The number one is the one that everyone's talking about, and that is using AI.
12:05But I would say we need to shift our mindset from using AI to working with AI.
12:11It's really training the marketing executives and other executives about how to work with AI so that we can actually do more with it, not to use it to replace everything.
12:22And so for me, that's a big shift.
12:24It's a big opportunity.
12:25Marketing will be one of the most effective functions within a corporation because we're going to use AI from insights to strategy to content development to content distribution to measurement.
12:38We're doing it across the whole spectrum, and so it'll be one of the most effective functions within a corporation.
12:43So I'm very excited about that.
12:45I see it as opportunity, not AI purely for efficiency, but AI for advantage.
12:51So that's probably the biggest one.
12:53What about job headcount?
12:55Because, you know, when people mention AI, there's the other side of that is job loss.
12:58You know, you look around the spectrum, UPS, Target, you know, the list goes on, Amazon.
13:03I mean, there's a lot of layoffs, and people are attributing it to AI.
13:07When you look in Visa, your department, your chief marketing officer, do you see less headcount in the future when AI continues to make its way?
13:13I don't necessarily see less headcount.
13:15I see less headcount growth, you know, as a result of bringing AI in.
13:20But, you know, if I'm looking at performing a function within the marketing workflow, the first question I'm going to ask is, can AI do that?
13:31And how does a human interact with the AI?
13:34And so for me, it's less about the pure efficiency play in terms of reducing headcount.
13:40It's more about, can I take the existing headcount I have and deliver exponentially more?
13:46Yeah.
13:46And so that, to me, is the opportunity that we're pursuing and the angle at which we're approaching.
13:50Yeah.
13:50We'll stay here for a minute.
13:51I'm going to shift right back to sports before getting to other things.
13:53But your favorite AI app, the one that you use, you see daily?
13:57You know, I mean, chat GPT-5 is probably the one I use the most.
14:02But, you know, Gemini is in your life no matter what.
14:05So if you're going on a search right now, even the basic search now, you know, you're getting the top answers coming from Gemini.
14:12If you click below, you hit AI mode, you're going deeper into Gemini.
14:15So those are the two that I use the most.
14:18The one I'm trying to explore is Sora, you know, which is basically full-on content development.
14:24You know, it's both scary and fascinating at the same time.
14:27But that's the one I really want to.
14:29I get Google Notebook, man.
14:30Google Notebook is phenomenal.
14:31You know, someone actually sent me a link to that the other day.
14:34And it was explaining, like, you've got to go on this.
14:36You've got to use this more often.
14:37You have to.
14:37That's my favorite AI app right now, Google Notebook.
14:40I'm always in it.
14:41Hey, listen, when I say these leagues, standing on the sports front for a minute, you tell me the first thing that comes to mind.
14:48Because, again, NFL, you know, is king in this country.
14:51But when you look at other leagues and maybe how Visa looks at them from a partnership standpoint, you tell me the first word that comes to mind.
14:58And I'll start with Major League Baseball and them just coming off their World Series.
15:01First thing that comes to mind for me is resurgence.
15:03Resurgence.
15:04Yeah.
15:04Because Major League Baseball, and you know this better than me, you know, if you go back, I don't know, 10 years or so, people were wondering, like, is Major League Baseball going to make it?
15:14Is it going to grow?
15:14Will they connect with the next generation?
15:16And, you know, they made some changes to the game, you know, sped it up a bit, and it feels more vibrant than it's ever felt.
15:23And anyone who watched this last World Series, I mean, that was – that's a classic.
15:27That was fun.
15:28And, you know, I'm up at 3 a.m.
15:30I know.
15:31On the East Coast, you know.
15:32We were probably up together watching it.
15:33Ha, ha, ha.
15:34That was you screaming?
15:35Exactly.
15:36It was amazing, you know.
15:37And the last game and watching, you know, Yamamoto and seeing it actually have more of a – kind of a global kind of context, too.
15:46For me, Major League Baseball to be resurgence, and I love seeing that momentum.
15:50Yeah.
15:51I love it.
15:51And we are – listen, we're sitting in history 15 years, 20 years in a row.
15:55We will say that Shohei Otani is the best MLB player to play.
15:58100%.
15:59I mean, this is like our era.
16:00We were always living off the Bay Roof stuff, but now we can say, no, no, no, no, he was good.
16:04But this guy right here?
16:05Yeah, and we saw it.
16:07That's right.
16:08Because seeing it, it's like someone can report it to you, but when you see it, you see it, he just pitched six innings, and he just got up there and just like –
16:16Knocked three home runs out of the park.
16:17How does that happen?
16:18It doesn't.
16:18It's what I'm saying.
16:19We're witnessing greatness.
16:20How about the NHL?
16:21You know, first thing I think about the NHL is small but fervent base.
16:26Small but fervent.
16:27Yeah.
16:28You know, if you're going – compared to, say, FIFA, compared to NFL, even compared to MLB,
16:35you know, the fan base in aggregate numbers from an advertiser is not that big.
16:39But what's great is, talk about engaged fans, deeply engaged fans.
16:43Yeah.
16:43Yeah, I mean, that is – they have a cult fan base following me outside.
16:46I'm from Philly again, so the Flyers games all the time.
16:49They could be losing, but people still pack it out.
16:51That's right.
16:51So, you know, I love – my daughter actually loves going to more hockey games than baseball games.
16:54I don't know why.
16:55It's just so funny.
16:56It's a great sport.
16:56It is.
16:57It really is.
16:57It's just so cold in the arena, though.
17:00WNBA, a league that's on the rise, ready to add some expansion teams and, you know,
17:04only looks at the trajectory going up.
17:06So, word for me on WNBA is renaissance.
17:08Renaissance.
17:09Yeah, because, you know, it's – it's not one player.
17:13I know there's a lot of focus on one player.
17:15It's been brewing for a while.
17:16I think women's sports in general.
17:19People are appreciating, you know, the athleticism.
17:23They're appreciating the talent.
17:24They're appreciating the dedication that's going in women's sports in general.
17:27But WNBA is leading that whole effort.
17:30And what makes these things work – and, Jabari, you know this better than anyone else's –
17:34you have to have – there's power in enemies.
17:36So, you have to have this kind of competition, you know, where people are rooting for one side versus the other.
17:41And we're starting to see that.
17:42And so, you see Caitlyn or Angel Reese –
17:45Rivalries.
17:46And these rivalries is what gives fuel to it.
17:48And so, I feel like that has not existed in the WNBA for a long time.
17:52But now it's here.
17:54But equally important, I think people appreciate the play for what it is.
17:57Instead of asking, you know, how does it compare to any other sport or, you know, the NBA itself,
18:03you know, they're looking at the play within WNBA and appreciating the talent and the athleticism within it.
18:08You mentioned women's sports, so I'm sure that that probably, you know, goes for the NWSL as well,
18:13another league that seems to be continuing to gain momentum every single year.
18:16Look, you know, Visa's been in women's football for over 20 years.
18:20We've invested in it.
18:21We believe in it.
18:22And it's growing at a rate that even I could not have predicted.
18:27Yeah.
18:27But, again, it's similar to WNBA, but I think even more accepted in terms of people appreciate the play.
18:34They see the talent.
18:35And now players are rising up as stars that get appreciated across the entire football, you know, global football kind of fan base.
18:44And so I'm most excited about that.
18:46And we have several players on Team Visa that we have some we're about to sign up.
18:51You know, women in football, to me, is the future.
18:54And I'm excited about it.
18:55Do you look at maybe shifting visas?
18:57I mean, listen, the NFL is a very expensive partnership to have because they draw the big ratings, right?
19:01We know this.
19:02But do you shift some of those dollars and say, you know what, we can start leaning more on the WNBA and to the NWSL because I'm sure that those packages are smaller.
19:09But the impact seems to be there.
19:10The growth seems to be there.
19:12I won't say we're shifting on the money.
19:14I'll say we are committed to investing more in women's sports.
19:18We've been in it for a long time, but we're investing more.
19:22You know, even when we get to the Olympics, for example, we have parity, gender parity in terms of Team Visa.
19:27We had about 147 Team Visa athletes, 50% women, 50% men.
19:32And so we're going to go heavier and heavier against women's sports, not just because it's less expensive.
19:37I think that if I look at the cultural momentum behind it, I look at the stars who are rising up and the impact that they can have both within culture and commerce,
19:46there's this underleveraged opportunity that exists within women's sports.
19:51Yeah, I'll say this one.
19:53I wanted to save it for last because they're going through a very dark time right now.
19:57But the NBA, how does a big advertiser like Visa, you're the chief market, sort of look at the NBA where you have betting scandal going on.
20:04You have allegations of ownership, cheating.
20:07How do you look at that league now being as though they're in this very, very interesting period?
20:11And you have their older stars, LeBron's, ready to phase out.
20:14Brand new stars there, right?
20:16Victor Juan Bionda and San Antonio.
20:18Great stars there, but they're going through a very, very interesting time right now.
20:21How do you look at a league like the NBA?
20:23Well, look, I mean, first I look at the leadership.
20:25And if I look at Adam Silver and the crises that he's navigated during his time as commissioner, I have a lot of confidence in that.
20:37And so it's another crisis.
20:39It has to be addressed.
20:41I have confidence that Adam Silver will address it.
20:44Mark Tatum, the deputy commissioner, will address it.
20:47And so leadership to me is the first and foremost, the most important thing.
20:51The second thing is, you know, we are, you know, sometimes trapped in the U.S. thinking that this is all about the U.S.
20:59But I'm really inspired by the NBA going international.
21:03They've been in China for a long time.
21:04They kind of pulled back a bit.
21:05They're now kind of reignited that in China.
21:08You have NBA Africa and the Basketball Africa League, which I think they're talking about Europe now.
21:12It looks like, you know, that's going to happen.
21:14And if you look at the percentage of players that have come from Eastern Europe and Africa that are now in the NBA proper, I think this has continues to have the potential of being the global game.
21:26There will be down times.
21:27There will be hard times.
21:28There are going to be crises.
21:29There are going to be scandals that you have to work through.
21:31But I have confidence that that leadership can work through it.
21:34And so, for me, I have no hesitation at all about any kind of potential partnership with the NBA.
21:41Yeah.
21:41Might be a little cheaper, though, because you're in a dark time.
21:43Who knows?
21:44I would say from the world's...
21:45What's it like being a CMO?
21:47I mean, you know, you hear about the title all the time.
21:49The biggest misconception I think most people have, you know, whether they're in the C-suite or whether they're just a consumer about marketing, is that it's all about advertising.
21:59The first thing that people will go to is that it's either advertising or social media and that you're here to create the sizzle, you know, make things hot, make things interesting.
22:09And that's part of the job.
22:10But what you just said is the most important part of it.
22:12The ultimate goal is to drive profitable growth.
22:15If we're not driving profitable growth, it doesn't matter.
22:18And so, and the only question is, how do you do it?
22:20And so, and that's changed over time.
22:22But, you know, you're changing people's perceptions.
22:24You're trying to connect to their kind of emotional, have some emotional resonance with them.
22:29But most importantly, you're trying to change their behavior.
22:31And so, so that to me is the key to it.
22:34Well, how does Visa change consumer behavior?
22:36Like if somebody's on one payment and you want them to switch over to Visa, like how do you guys change consumer behavior?
22:40Sometimes it's at the very beginning.
22:42So you want to load something into a digital wallet?
22:45You know, you want that to be a Visa credential.
22:47Because once you load it in, it can become your default payment.
22:49You want that to become a Visa credential.
22:51You know, you want to travel across borders.
22:55You know, one of the fastest growing segments in cross-border travel is female solo travel.
23:00And so, you know, traveling alone, you want to have the confidence that this card will be accepted.
23:06And I don't know of a card that's more accepted than Visa.
23:09Now, traveling alone, you want to make sure that if you had any problems, you know, it will get taken care of.
23:15And so having that trust is really important.
23:18And so sometimes reminding people about the foundational aspects of Visa, you know, which is acceptance and security,
23:25but also reminding them that the brand is with them, you know.
23:28And it's not just about this notion of everywhere you want to be in the sense of travel.
23:33It's like today, most people, when they think about the transactions, they're also thinking about what that says about them, you know,
23:39and what they can become and the potential that they have, you know.
23:42I wouldn't suggest anyone, you know, go out and use it to fund a film,
23:46but you can use it to actually buy those cleats for your daughter, who's now going to play football,
23:53who may end up, you know, playing, you know, for Gotham FC or something, or Bay FC.
23:58They might want to use a film to film.
23:59Look, Robert Townsend did that for Hollywood several years ago.
24:02He found it on his credit card.
24:03I was thinking about Robert Townsend as I was saying it.
24:07And that was a success.
24:08It was. He lucked out.
24:10Yeah, exactly.
24:10You know, it definitely lucked out.
24:11But listen, you talk about foundation.
24:13Take a step back.
24:14You know, you grew up in San Francisco, right, before you moved to Carson, California.
24:18What was that like for you growing up in San Francisco and then moving?
24:20You know, this is one of those funny things, because when I think about growing up,
24:24when people say, where are you from?
24:25I say California.
24:26And they say, I was born in San Francisco, you know, and I lived in Carson.
24:29My coming of age years were in Carson, California.
24:32You know, from really the fourth grade to the 11th grade.
24:35This was my coming of age years.
24:36I was in Carson, California.
24:37Very diverse community.
24:40But it was, but it taught you, for me, it kind of taught me the grit and resilience that
24:47is needed to move forward.
24:49It showed me all the traps that were around you, you know, that you could easily fall into
24:53if you weren't focused and disciplined.
24:55And so I carry a lot of that with me, the Carson experience.
25:00And, you know, San Francisco was interesting because it's more, it remained, it was always
25:05in technology.
25:05My dad was in technology.
25:06And so, so that kind of became a backdrop for me also.
25:10So I think of Carson as kind of the grit, resilience.
25:13I was really into sports.
25:15I was really into entertainment.
25:17San Francisco was the technology side for me.
25:19And those, those three things kind of came together.
25:21Yeah.
25:21Your dad was in technology.
25:22What did your mom do?
25:23Teacher.
25:24Teacher.
25:24Yeah.
25:25That's right.
25:25She went to UC Berkeley because she kind of motivated that.
25:28She, she, she did.
25:29Yeah.
25:29Yeah.
25:29Which, you know, at the time was kind of amazing, you know, but, you know, when I think
25:34about myself, it's really a combination of, of my mom and dad in that sense, you know,
25:39he was more of a inventor, technologist, you know, she's more of a teacher.
25:44And I feel like half of what I do is about teaching, you know, you know, half of what we
25:50do, I think as marketers is about helping people understand.
25:53Half of what I do inside the company is, is to try to become more of a translation layer
25:58between marketing and our business partners within the company so that they understand
26:04kind of what we're doing and why we're doing and what business outcomes they have.
26:07And then the technology piece to me has always been important, not because of the technology
26:11itself, but what it can actually do for us.
26:13That's right.
26:13What it can do for people.
26:14And so I always, I always work back from the technology to kind of what are we really
26:19trying to get people to do and, and how does that open up new opportunities for them
26:23and unlock potential?
26:24Yeah.
26:25Before you fell in love with marketing though, like what's that Frank Cooper like on a Saturday
26:28in the fifth grade watching cartoons?
26:30Like what was your favorite cartoon on a Saturday in Carson?
26:33So, so, um, what are you, Woodpecker?
26:35No, no, no.
26:36So I love Kung Fu movies.
26:37Kung Fu movies.
26:38So you would sit there and kind of like look at the ones who come on with the, the subtitles
26:42and all this?
26:43Subtitles where, where, where, where, where the lip syncing, it was completely off from
26:46the actual overdubs.
26:48Those are the best Kung Fu movies.
26:49Those are the best Kung Fu movies.
26:50I love Kung Fu movies.
26:52And then when, of course, when Bruce Lee came out, uh, I was in the theater watching
26:55back to back, you know, probably three times in a row, whether it was Chinese Connection,
26:59Fist of Fury.
26:59So I love that.
27:01Um, I loved it in part because I love the underdog story.
27:04That's right.
27:04Because a lot of them were about the under, it's about the underdog.
27:07You know, it's about someone who traditionally was not considered to have the power, you know,
27:12quiet, humble, but then ultimately kind of transcended all that and became the one who actually
27:19succeeded.
27:19So I love that story of the, the, uh, kind of the, maybe the underdog is, is the people
27:25who are, are, are, are, are not, um, perceived as the ones who are going to win, but who have
27:31it in them.
27:31And, and, uh, and, and you can see that get unlocked both by their own courage, but also
27:37the confidence that others have in them and their ability to kind of just step into, into
27:40the arena and perform.
27:42Yeah.
27:42I love that.
27:43Were you an underdog?
27:44Cause it was, it true.
27:44You played basketball against Daryl Strawberry in high school.
27:48Yeah.
27:48So were you an underdog then?
27:50I didn't accept myself an underdog.
27:52I was like, I was like, I'm the one.
27:53You took a toll then.
27:54You took a toll.
27:55No.
27:55So, so Daryl was, you know, he's, he was a stronger baseball player, but he was, he
27:58was always, he was strong.
28:00Yeah.
28:00And so, um, and he was a, he was a Crenshaw, he was where he was playing, uh, Crenshaw was
28:05a, it was a good basketball team.
28:06They weren't the best, you know?
28:08And so, and so, so I wasn't afraid of that at all.
28:10Um, for me, the, the pivotal moment was playing against Kevin Johnson when I went to, um, to
28:15Berkeley.
28:15And for me, that actually was a clarifying moment because I could see the distinction between
28:20those who are going to like, you know, you can see that person's going to go pro because
28:24I mean, the lift off on a jump shot, the speed at which they're actually cutting through
28:28the lane, um, the control, you know, that they have of their body through it, but also
28:32the most important thing was the dedication they had to actually get it becoming the best.
28:38That's right.
28:38You know, just being focused on getting better and better and better.
28:41And for me, it was one of the lessons I learned, which is if you're going to do it and you
28:45want to be, you have a choice, you can be average or good, you know, or, or, or great.
28:50Um, but if you want to be great, it requires dedication and focus and you got to put it in.
28:55There's no substitute for putting it in and talent is never going to outweigh, um, um,
29:00someone who's actually putting it in every single day getting better.
29:03Yeah.
29:04I love that.
29:05And again, you go to UC Berkeley degree in business administration in Harvard law school,
29:09but who was Frank Cooper coming out of college?
29:11And I only ask because, you know, you have a lot of college graduates nowadays.
29:15It's, it's hard for them to find jobs.
29:17You know, it's hard for them to get in the door.
29:18When I came out of college, um, I felt like going to law school was a safe path.
29:24It's like, yeah.
29:25Um, because it's like, you know, as a lawyer, I can always work.
29:28Um, I can work at a law firm where I can, I can hang up a shingle myself.
29:33I will always be able to work.
29:34Um, and I will always have power because I have knowledge about how the law works.
29:39Right.
29:39And so I got there, I thought I was going to teach constitutional law.
29:42That's what I thought I was going to do.
29:43And I was really fortunate because I had someone who basically told me, scrap everything you've
29:49been thinking about.
29:50You know, you have these preconceived notions of the boxes that you can fit into.
29:53He says, you've got to do the internal work first, which is think about the thing that
29:58actually energizes you, gives you passion, you know, combine that with your talent and
30:02then start looking at work you can get paid for.
30:04And that was the big pivot for me because once I did that, I said, I've always loved entertainment.
30:10I believe the contribution that entertainment, music in particular, can make to the world.
30:15Um, and I've seen it, you know, I was very fortunate to see it at Motown.
30:18I see it at the FGM also.
30:19Um, the contribution that I can make to the world was significant.
30:22And so I made that shift.
30:24Um, but there's a second thing that happened that really was probably the most pivotal thing
30:28for me in my entire career.
30:29I realized that in order for me to really get to the heights, at least my, my, my perception
30:36of getting to the top, I needed to be in an environment or an industry where there's
30:42fundamental change happening.
30:44And, and it just so happened that change was starting to spread rapidly, you know, kind
30:48of Ray Kurzweil's, uh, idea of exponential change, you know, that became not just in technology,
30:52it's spread everywhere.
30:53But I was looking for like, where's change happening?
30:55And can I find a leadership team that wants to lead that change?
31:00And I thought in that environment, I could thrive because if the, if, if, if there's a
31:05leadership team that perceives that you're in a world of incremental change, they're like,
31:09we got this, we know this.
31:10In fact, we know how it's going to proceed.
31:12I can map it out.
31:14And they tend to go with the familiar, you know, and, and the familiar, um, doesn't include
31:20people who are new, who are, who are from the outside, who, who, who, uh, you know, are
31:26not similar to those who are already in the seat.
31:29And so I, I looked for change and, and, and I, I embraced the change and I knew that in
31:34order to be successful in change, you had to do a couple of things.
31:37You had to be a continuous learner and you had to be able to adapt, um, as, as new
31:42information came in.
31:44And so that's what I've done across all the industries, whether it was technology, whether
31:48it was entertainment and now financial services.
31:50Yeah.
31:50Well, switch to the entertainment side, because again, and looking at your background, Frank,
31:54I mean, entertainment lawyer at Motown, right?
31:56I mean, you have such this great career and journey.
31:59You've probably learned so much.
32:00A marketing wizard, I think, you know, again, Motown and you go to Def Jam as, as senior vice
32:05president of business affairs, AOL, Buzzfeed, again, Pepsi, BlackRock, and now here at Visa.
32:10But a part of that journey, I realized that you were also the co-founder of our urban box
32:16network, right?
32:18UBO.net online media company founded in 1998.
32:21And I'm thinking, man, this guy was like ahead of the curve when it came down to media companies
32:25online, right?
32:26How did you pitch investors back in the nineties for an online media company?
32:30Like what was your pitch to investors in land?
32:32You know, it was such an insane time, you know, um, because it was a time where, um, if,
32:38if you came to an investor and you said, I have a plan for profitable growth in the next
32:44two years, here's a very tight strategy.
32:47You would get zero dollars.
32:49What people were looking for at that time in 97, 98, they were, they were looking for,
32:54have you identified a market, you know, some landscape that you could actually dominate
32:59over time and, and take a large percentage of that kind of, that total accessible market.
33:05If you weren't talking that language, you were going to lose.
33:06So we identified, Hey, there's a market out here.
33:08And this is really the lesson of Motown and Def Jam combined, which is there's a market
33:12that transcends race, gender, geography, ethnicity.
33:19And in that market is what we called, people are calling urban.
33:23Some people historically thought of it as a black audience, but like, it's not that there
33:27are these cultural values and perspectives that people have and rituals and symbols that
33:33bind them together.
33:34And so that was the idea was that when you look at it through that lens, all of a sudden,
33:38the size of that market, the spending power of that market was substantial.
33:41Yeah.
33:42So that was the pitch.
33:43Yeah.
33:44At the time.
33:45Yeah.
33:46I love it, man.
33:47And then, um, something happened though.
33:48And, you know, go back to February, 2000, when your partner, George Jackson died.
33:50Yeah.
33:51You just got finished raising millions of dollars from private equity groups.
33:54Clarence Avant, one of your investors, God bless his life.
33:57But, uh, George Jackson, for people who don't know.
34:00And, and I even realized this because it's not like I looked at all of the credits on the back
34:03there.
34:04I was just looking at like who was on the front of the poster.
34:05Yeah.
34:06And you talk about a producer for Jason's Lyric.
34:07Yeah.
34:08New Jack City.
34:09Yeah.
34:10House Party 2 and 3.
34:11Yeah.
34:12And then one of my favorites was Disorderly's with the Fat Boys.
34:13Right?
34:14I mean, George Jackson was just like this ultimate producer and he was your partner.
34:17Yeah.
34:18And then he died.
34:19Yeah.
34:20Where are you at mentally when this happens to you?
34:21You're an entrepreneur, you're starting, and then you're one of your main partners.
34:24Yeah.
34:25He dies.
34:26How does Frank Cooper adjust at that point?
34:28What happened?
34:29For me, that was the beginning of the end.
34:30Because, um, because George was not just a partner.
34:33He was a really, really, really close friend.
34:36And, um, and both of us were close to Clarence Avant.
34:39And so Clarence Avant was the glue.
34:41He was George's mentor.
34:43He was my mentor.
34:44Um, you know, even throughout the time I was in the music industry, uh, you know, Clarence
34:49is the one kind of helping guide me, uh, you know, through, uh, different parts of it.
34:54And so for me, it was not only a blow in terms of losing a partner and a leader.
34:59And I think, um, someone who's at the core of the vision for it.
35:02Um, but it was a really, uh, close friend.
35:04And for me, that was a, um, a time for me to reflect on what do I want to do?
35:09And at that point, it really, um, I felt like there's, there are great, the market was crashing
35:14anyway.
35:15I was like, there are greater opportunities doing something outside of it.
35:17Yeah.
35:18Yeah.
35:19If you had to describe him in one word again, God produced some of the, my best classics in the
35:22movies that I've watched.
35:23Still have it in my DVD collection.
35:25I still collect DVDs.
35:26I still do.
35:27Cause you can't rely on streaming.
35:28They take stuff on, they take it off.
35:29Like I want to watch stuff when I want to watch it.
35:30So you're the guy like, just in case.
35:32Just in case, right?
35:33Something happens.
35:34You know, like streaming goes out.
35:35Guess what?
35:36I can still keep myself entertained.
35:37DVDs.
35:38Uh, but if you had to describe him for one in one word for people who did not know him
35:41or his work, what would you say?
35:43A kind visionary.
35:45Visionary.
35:46In filmmaking.
35:47Yeah.
35:48You know, just take, just take New Jack City by itself.
35:53You know, that spun out a bunch of different, it almost created a subgenre, right?
35:56So like a bunch of different movies followed New Jack City and, um, you know, Wesley Snipes,
36:01you know, his career kind of catapulted through that.
36:04Yeah.
36:05Jason's lyric took a completely different approach to it.
36:08Uh, uh, to kind of, you know, life in the, in the, in the urban environment.
36:13And-
36:14Now in the south in Houston.
36:15Yeah, exactly.
36:16Exactly.
36:17So, um, you know, to me that was visionary because it was setting, um, a new standard about
36:21what these films could be and who they would appeal to.
36:24Um, but the most beautiful thing about George to me is his kindness.
36:28Mm-hmm.
36:29You know, um, anyone who knew him, anyone who knew him would know that, uh, he would
36:32give the shirt off his back for you.
36:34He would do anything to help, uh, a friend, uh, move forward in life and, and, um, you
36:40know, definitely miss that to this day.
36:42Yeah.
36:43Yeah.
36:44Most definitely, man.
36:45Working with stars like Beyonce, right?
36:46Yeah.
36:47I mean, you helped put together the deal while you were at Pepsi, right?
36:50Yeah.
36:51Her big Super Bowl reveal.
36:52And, um, one of the things that you said was is that how the big stars, and you hear this
36:56a lot, they pay attention to detail.
36:58So when she was watching some of the footage that you were showing her before over air
37:02publicly, she watched frame by frame, pointing things out.
37:04100%.
37:05It's that attention to detail.
37:06But what's it like to pitch them?
37:07What is the key for young marketers when you see a celebrity of that, of that magnitude
37:12in front of your face and they want to hear what idea you have?
37:15Yeah.
37:16What, what, what do you recommend?
37:17You know, look, I mean, it's, for me, it's always a balance between respecting, uh, and,
37:22and demonstrating respect for everything that they've achieved.
37:25Yeah.
37:26But not going so far where, you know, you just become a, kind of a sycophantic fan.
37:31You know, you're like, you know, you respect it, you acknowledge it, and you can, and they
37:36can tell whether or not you're informed, because you can reference certain things that they've
37:40done or not.
37:41So you've got to respect it.
37:42But everyone, I don't care how big you are, I don't care what you've done, um, any star,
37:47pick any, from, from film to TV to music to sports.
37:52Everyone is trapped in their own ecosystem.
37:54And they can't do something that they really want to do.
37:57Every single one of them has a dream.
37:59Every single one of them has some ambition that goes beyond what they're currently doing.
38:03Sometimes it's outside of the industry.
38:04They want to do something in business.
38:06Uh, sometimes it's actually in the industry where they want to do something from a different
38:10perspective.
38:11It's like a producer, a director, or a creative.
38:14Um, and so what I do is I spend a lot of time trying to understand that side of it.
38:17Yeah.
38:18What do you want to do that we can do together that neither one of us can do alone?
38:22And so I put a lot of energy into that.
38:24And, and that's what, that opens up a new conversation, uh, and a new level of respect for each other.
38:30Because anything else for them is transactional.
38:32And so it's like, oh, you want me to show up?
38:35You want me to perform?
38:36We have, we have kind of the transactional data for that.
38:39Um, you know, go talk to my agent.
38:40Go talk to my agent.
38:41Go talk to my attorney.
38:42We'll get the deal done if they want to do it.
38:43But this is a different conversation.
38:45This is now a relationship, a partnership based on an ambition that they have.
38:49And so that's the thing that I've always, um, you know, I've been fairly good at is getting,
38:56uh, to understand that part of it.
38:58And, and once you get there and if you deliver, the level of trust just increases exponentially.
39:03Yeah.
39:04It's almost like what you have referenced, which, you know, Clarence Avon was so good at, solving
39:08people's problems, right?
39:09We all come to people.
39:10We all have our problems.
39:11We all want people to help.
39:12We want a job.
39:13Can you give me this?
39:14Can you give me a loan?
39:15But get good at solving other people's problems and you'll have a network that embraces you.
39:19One hundred percent.
39:20One hundred percent.
39:21Solving people's problems.
39:22I love that.
39:23What's your biggest failure as a CMO?
39:24As a CMO.
39:25As a CMO.
39:26As a CMO.
39:27What did you learn?
39:28What did you learn from it?
39:29Yeah.
39:30You can't fail every day, Frank.
39:31They'd be so fine if you fail every day, right?
39:32Come on.
39:33I mean, you know, some, some failures are small.
39:34Yeah.
39:35You know, like, and they don't, they don't, they go unnoticed.
39:37I mean, cause, and we know, I try to have a bunch of experiments.
39:40And to me, if you're not failing, you're not pushing the boundaries.
39:42Yeah.
39:43And so, so we're constantly trying to push the boundaries.
39:45But your biggest one, and what'd you learn from that one?
39:47It's not a single campaign.
39:49It's not a single platform or project.
39:51If I say, my biggest failure, I would say, has been translating, before coming to Visa,
40:01translating what marketing does into the simplest terms that, that non-marketers can both understand
40:10and believe in.
40:11Yeah.
40:12And I call it a failure because without it, you never get a substantial increase in your
40:18budget.
40:19You never get the full satisfaction from, you know, the C-suite that they understand what
40:25you, what you delivered.
40:26And so it took me a while to figure that out.
40:29Like how to, by the way, I'm not the only one trying to, trying to solve that problem.
40:33You know, Mark has been trying to solve that problem for, for a long time.
40:36But I felt like I've gotten closer to it now than I've ever been.
40:40And, you know, we developed this concept of profitable consumer behaviors.
40:44You know, so like, so I'm not looking at trying to move some marketing jargon, right?
40:49So like, you know, people say purchase intent and other kinds of brand equities, which kind
40:54of just wash over people.
40:55But if I can figure out a, a move that a consumer can make that everyone believes is a leading
41:03indicator of some business outcome that they, that they think would be helpful, then we're
41:09winning.
41:10For example, if I said digital wallets, if I, if I can get someone to load this card, this
41:16potential end first, and our insights and our data shows that it becomes a default payment, I can
41:21increase the percentage of, I can, I can increase the transactions and the payment volume that
41:26happens on this particular card in this wallet.
41:29Yeah.
41:30Everyone can understand that.
41:31And so loading into the wallet is a profitable consumer behavior.
41:34I can focus on that.
41:35But that translation layer, Javari to me, is perhaps the most important role of the CMO
41:43within the C, within the C-suite.
41:45Yeah.
41:46Getting people to understand that idea, how to get people to have that emotion about a
41:49brand, a trusted brand.
41:50Exactly.
41:51Yeah.
41:52And getting people to believe in the, the way in which you're measuring what you're
41:55doing.
41:56Yeah.
41:57Get you out of here on some fun stuff.
41:58But before I do, again, planning forward, if you had to give that advice to the next Frank
42:02Cooper, that CMO who wants to maybe follow your lead, what advice are you giving them?
42:07What trait to use to make it in corporate America?
42:09Yeah.
42:10To make it today, you know, given the amount of change that's happening, I think you have
42:15to become what I would call now the fat T. The fat T is like, the T person is somebody
42:20who's really curious.
42:21And so they learn horizontally.
42:23They're learning from a bunch of different things, but then they have a specialization.
42:27Yeah.
42:28And so some might say I'm specializing in data, specialize in kind of created value.
42:31The fat T is you have to have multiple specializations.
42:35Yeah.
42:36I think that's where we are today.
42:37So remain curious, continue to learn, go deep on a few areas where you think it's going
42:44to be a skill that is transferable.
42:47So to me, that's, that's where I would go.
42:50And anything short of that, you're going to, you might perfect what's happening right
42:55here, right now, but I can promise you two years from now, it's going to look very different.
42:59And so you might want to develop the skill set and the continuous learning and the adaptability
43:04to meet the changes that will happen, inevitably happen in the next few years.
43:07Yeah.
43:08Love it.
43:09Well, listen, to get you out of here now, start with the million dollar question.
43:11And I always ask people, if you made a million dollars, right, how did you spend a million dollars?
43:15I would try not to spend it.
43:17That's the first thing.
43:19I, you know, I try to save it.
43:21I try to invest some of it.
43:23And, you know, I'm, I like real estate still.
43:27And so, you know, I invest some into, into some real estate.
43:31Yeah.
43:32So you have different properties and things in your portfolio.
43:34Yes.
43:35You have an apartment complex at all too.
43:37Housing is right now.
43:38Yeah.
43:39It's, it's hot.
43:40Yeah.
43:41Yeah.
43:42You got a housing, you have an apartment complex?
43:43I got that too.
43:44Oh man, we got to talk.
43:45I might have to rent something from you afterwards, Frank.
43:46I love that, man.
43:47Advertising and marketing industry.
43:48Again, we talked about AI, but when it does come to AI, there's a whole bunch of benefits,
43:53but what is keeping you up at night was still something that is concerning you about AI
43:58and roll out again, agenting AI too?
44:00Well, look, I mean, for me, AI in general, what keeps me up at night is whether we're moving fast enough.
44:07You know, it's changing.
44:09It is, you know, when the first people were talking about the state two years ago, you know,
44:14there was like a five year, sometimes a seven year horizon.
44:17You know, people talk about AGI.
44:19Forget AGI.
44:20You know, we may not ever get to that point in my lifetime, but what I can tell you is that the fundamental shift
44:27that has happened in the past year alone, if that's any indication of where we're going,
44:32you know, you have to adjust virtually everything you're doing to adapt to that new environment.
44:37So what keeps me up is, are we moving fast enough?
44:39So that's the first thing.
44:40But what actually inspires me is agentic commerce.
44:43And because I don't think it's going to be what the first phase of it is going to be excitement with,
44:49I got an agent, my agent can shop for me.
44:52But I think the second phase of that's going to be, but what do I enjoy about shopping?
44:57So now I can focus on, there's a certain category of things that maybe I don't want to think about.
45:01I want to put it on repeat in my agent.
45:04But there's other things where I think the shopping experience is going to be rich.
45:08I think retailers are going to get incredibly smart about what you and I were talking about earlier, the live experience.
45:15Incredibly smart about like, what can I do where it actually is important for people to see each other face to face, even in a shopping environment.
45:21So I think that, you know, we'll get through this first phase of it.
45:24But as you get to the second phase, I think that's where agentic commerce gets really interesting.
45:28Because the human in the process of that is going to dictate a different outcome than just agents buying everything for you all the time.
45:37Look around the world.
45:38What country does Frank Cooper, you, invest in right now?
45:41Around the world.
45:42Around the world.
45:43I would invest in the U.S.
45:44In the U.S.
45:45I would invest in the U.S.
45:46For sure.
45:47Dollars down.
45:48A lot of stuff happening here.
45:49It's crazy.
45:50It's polarized.
45:51It's off track in many respects.
45:56We've got tariffs.
45:57We've got, you know, a lot of things that I think would encourage you not to invest in the U.S.
46:04But I believe in the fundamental truth of the history of the U.S., which has been we innovate our way out.
46:13That's right.
46:14And so if I think if the U.S. and U.S. business kind of falls back into that pattern, that historical pattern of innovation and competing, I think the U.S. is going to be a really good place.
46:27And it's a great place to invest.
46:29I think three books that inspire Frank Cooper to perform or do your best or motivate you, right?
46:34And since we're talking CMO and marketing, right, I would love three marketing books, right, that marketers should look out for.
46:40It's the holiday season, so they may want to pick some up for gifts themselves.
46:43Looking into 2026.
46:44How can they get better as a marketer?
46:46How can they be Frank Cooper?
46:47Give me three books.
46:48So number one, don't just look at marketing books.
46:50Yeah.
46:51Because marketing is all the things that, you know, changes people's perception, emotions and behaviors.
46:56That's the first one.
46:57But if you're going to pick a marketing book, one that I loved was This Is Marketing by Seth Godin.
47:02Okay.
47:03And I thought that was a great book.
47:05For AI, which I think everyone should do, I like Co-Intelligence by Ethan Mollick.
47:10Okay.
47:11You know, I think that was a fantastic book.
47:14And beyond that, for me, I'd go much broader.
47:19And I'd probably go with a book called Empathy.
47:21Empathy.
47:22By Rifkin.
47:23Okay.
47:24And, you know, actually, let me change that.
47:26Okay.
47:27Let me change that.
47:28Give us four.
47:29It's holiday season.
47:30We'll get a picture.
47:31By Rifkin.
47:32It's a great book.
47:33But it shows that that's kind of the core of humanity is being able to understand each other
47:38and put yourselves in someone else's shoes.
47:40We go off track many times, but we always come back to that center of gravity.
47:46And for marketers, it's important for them to understand that.
47:48And the last one is by a professor out of Harvard Business School, Ranjay Gulati.
47:53And he has a book called How to Be Bold.
47:55How to Be Bold.
47:56And it's a science of courage.
47:57And I feel like we're in a period of time right now where having the ability to move forward,
48:03despite the fear that some may have, is really important.
48:06And so I think that's a great book for everyone, but marketers in particular.
48:10Yeah.
48:11I love it.
48:12I'm putting them on my list now.
48:13Giving out.
48:14Uncle wants books all the time.
48:15A lot of people read books.
48:16And a lot of people want them as gifts, too.
48:17I know.
48:18So I love it.
48:19I love a book.
48:20Yes.
48:21Well, listen, I get tired of hearing my favorite book, right?
48:23Jim Collins, Good the Great.
48:24Love that book.
48:25Fantastic.
48:26What's the difference between a good CMO and a great one?
48:28Look, I mean, a good CMO has all the techniques and knowledge that a CMO should have.
48:36They're data-driven.
48:37You know, they understand how to tell stories.
48:40They understand how to synthesize large sets of information.
48:46They have taste because you have to produce things that people actually see and want to see.
48:51But a great CMO, a great CMO knows it's not about you.
48:56A great CMO knows that it's going to be the talent that you build on your team and the way they complement each other that's actually going to deliver what you need going forward.
49:06And so it's the most, you know, it's kind of, I feel like I'm telling that scene from Doctor Strange.
49:12Yeah.
49:13The agent one says, it's not about you.
49:14It's not about you.
49:15And I think that's the most important thing.
49:17Yeah.
49:18Love it.
49:19If you fail, it's nothing more than a learning experience.
49:21Take that and use it to your benefit.
49:22That's something that you said.
49:23You learned that from Clarence Avant, always a fan of his fearlessness, as you always say.
49:28So I wanted to leave that quote out there because, you know, you failed in your career, entrepreneur phase failed, but you still use it to your benefit.
49:35And this is why you're a CMO at Visa, biggest brand in the world.
49:38Thank you so much.
49:39I love it.
49:40Yeah.
49:41Frank Cooper here at the NASDAQ market site.
49:42Got to come back.
49:43Talk market.
49:44I'm sure a lot of stuff is ready to happen in 2026.
49:46All these trends are different.
49:47And I want to see what you do with all that money that you're saving from the NFL.
49:50Right.
49:51Got to come back.
49:52Thank you so much for appreciate the time, Frank.
49:54Thank you, man.
49:55And all the wisdom.
49:56And again, have a phenomenal holiday season coming up.
49:59Right.
50:01Great to be here with you.
50:02Frank Cooper here at the NASDAQ market site, the enterprise zone.
50:04Thank you for listening.
50:05Thank you for listening.
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