- 5 months ago
This programme focusses on the impact of devastating cloudbursts in Uttarakhand and Himachal Pradesh, which have resulted in flash floods and widespread destruction.
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00:00Good evening, you're watching To The Point here on India Today. I'm Akshita Anandakopal.
00:03This evening, over the next 30 minutes, I'll be getting you all the latest updates on that horrific cloudburst that's taken place in the hills,
00:11both Uttarakhand and Himachal once again ravaged by floods.
00:14We'll be getting you live updates on the situation currently. Let's begin with the headlines.
00:23Big confession by Pakistan. Deputy Prime Minister Ishak Dar admits India outrightly rejected third-party talks
00:29for ceasefire, says India asserted that the issue is bilateral.
00:39India-U.S. trade talks conclude. U.S. negotiator Lynch holds talks with his Indian counterpart.
00:45Rajesh Agarwal talks in Delhi to prepare grounds for the sixth round of negotiations.
00:54Political storm escalates after former Pakistani cricketer Shahid Afridi Prima
00:59says Rahul Gandhi. BGP claims India haters automatically become Rahul's fan.
01:05Congress hits back post images of BGP netas with a freebie.
01:12U.S. continues to turn a blind eye to terrorist state Pakistan.
01:16Sources indicate Donald Trump is set to meet Pakistan Prime Minister Shahbaz Sharif
01:20on the sidelines of the UNGA summit.
01:22Army chief Asim Munir is also expected to tag along.
01:30Team India gets a new kit sponsor.
01:33Apollo Tires signs a deal to sponsor the team for 4.5 crores per game till 2027.
01:40Takes over betting app.
01:41Dream 11 is the primary sponsor.
01:42Massive cloudbursts in Himachal and Uttarakhand floods engulfed parts of Deiradun and Mundi.
01:54Shops, hotels submerged in floods.
01:56You can see the raging rivers downstream.
02:01It has caused tremendous damage to the people who are living nearby the banks of this river.
02:09Hotel building has been completely collapsed.
02:12It's been submerged in the river as well.
02:15But our top focus this evening is on the situation currently in North India.
02:25It seemed like the worst was over but unfortunately once again the people of Uttarakhand as well as Himachal woke up to chaos.
02:33Flash floods triggered by sudden cloudbursts leaving behind a trail of destruction.
02:39Deiradun and Uttarakhand, Mundi in Himachal.
02:41These are the two worst affected districts.
02:45We'll take you in fact through the situation first in Deiradun where the heavy water current destroyed homes, roads.
02:51You see on your screens there a temple almost completely submerged.
02:56NDRF immediately stepped in to help with relief and rescue operations.
03:01And then there's Himachal Pradesh which already has seen horrifying damage as a result of the monsoon.
03:07This is the aftermath of a flash flood in Mundi.
03:10Vehicles swept away, shops completely destroyed.
03:14And this is in the heart of Mundi that the entire road has completely caved in.
03:18Let's get you a sense of what the situation is currently in these two districts as the hills clearly have been broken this monsoon.
03:40The hills in North India are facing a massive flood fury.
03:45States of Uttarakhand and Himachal are battling immense deluge.
03:54Multiple deaths have been reported in Himachal while at least two people are reportedly missing in Deiradun.
03:59The hill states have seen extensive damage to key bridges and arterial roads.
04:05The rains leaving behind a trail of destruction with multiple locations reported to be underwater.
04:11The tapkeshwar Mahadev temple in Uttarakhand's Deiradun has suffered extensive damage after the Tamsa river which got swollen by torrential rains and a cloud burst inundated the temple premises.
04:28In Uttarakhand, late-night strong rains in the Sahasradara area of Deiradun flooded hotels and shops with the main market suffering structural damages.
04:45You can see that behind David's local, there's another building which was also devastated after the flash flood struck the Sahasradara area last night.
04:57And according to locals, there were two incidents of cloud burst which has caused a flash flood and the Sahasradara river is also flowing in spade right now.
05:07Clearly visible over here, the building is quite sensitive and can fall at any point in time.
05:14If there's another strut of calamity or if there's another pressure, it may cause the building to fall and completely merge in the river and this is going to be very devastating.
05:31Torrential rains from a cloud burst in Sahasradara in Deiradun triggered landslides.
05:36Heavy downpours destroyed houses, washed away cars and inundated shops in the hilly region.
05:42Many have been stranded.
05:44And though there are many places in the only place, people who are driving here and are still demanding,
05:49Many of the systems have been stranded.
05:52Many of the people have been through its work and are a commercially adjacent to this area,
05:56but there are many of them being engaged in the department.
05:58There are many other places that can be moved to a home and they can keep the house clean and also take even out the house.
06:02Surgery, you can meet with the park.
06:04So that all the water is going to be in the rain.
06:07The water is going to the road and keep the water.
06:10Three people of a family were killed in Himachal Pradesh's Mandi district.
06:21Flood waters inundated the Dharampur bus stand, sweeping away several Himachal Road Transport Corporation buses.
06:27Traffic has been disrupted on at least 500 roads across the state.
06:32The Met Department has announced a red alert for the next 24 hours and has ordered schools to remain closed.
06:37With Ankit Sharma in Deiradun, Bureau Report, India Today.
07:07Is there a warning for more rainfall in the coming days?
07:11Yes, sir.
07:12Batch.
07:16Ankit, can you hear me?
07:20Apologies. Don't think Ankit is with us.
07:22We're going to reconnect with him and get you a sense of what the current situation is in Deiradun.
07:27Because the images that you see on your screens are terrifying.
07:31It shows the kind of damage and destruction caused as a result of a cloud burst.
07:35Water levels have gone up to unprecedented levels.
07:39This was the situation about two weeks ago.
07:42And then there was a lull which led to hope that things were under control, that the worst is behind us.
07:47And again, in the last 24 hours, you see those visuals on your screens.
07:52Ankit is back with us.
07:53Ankit, if you can hear me, take us through the current situation in Deiradun.
07:57And what's the forecast for the next 24 hours?
07:59Well, Akshita, the situation is grim right now.
08:07And the monsoon doesn't seem to be looking for bidding goodbye to Uttarakhand.
08:13And you can see that in the last 24 hours, it has caused havoc in many parts of the outer Deiradun and the capital as well.
08:23Earlier, it was started with Dharali, then it shifted to Dharali in Chamoli.
08:28And now it has come to Deiradun.
08:31After incidents of extreme rainfall events in a lot many areas in Deiradun,
08:37it caused flash flood which struck not only Sahasadara but Maldevata region.
08:42And the outer Deiradun area as well in Sahaspur.
08:47And in Rishikesh as well where Chandrabhaga River was also flowing in spade.
08:51Now, in the next 24 hours, the IMD has also, once again, cautioned people to stay away from the rivulets and river drains
09:00because, again, if the situation arises, it may cause more damage than it caused yesterday
09:07because the accumulation of river and water may swell once again
09:12and it can reach into the city areas and may also cause waterlogging
09:17and it may also cause devastation in the midst of the city and bustling area as well.
09:25Now, as far as the weather is concerned, in the next 24 hours,
09:29Deiradun is also under the red alert warning
09:33and the weather department is continuously looking after the situation, the cloud movements.
09:40And so far, 13 people have died in the monsoon fury since last night.
09:47Eight were killed after the trolley swept away in Tones River of Deiradun
09:52while others were killed in different incidents in other parts of Deiradun.
09:57So far, the calamity struck heavily in Deiradun and nearby regions only.
10:02The next 24 hours, you could actually see more damage, more destruction
10:06based on what Ankit tells us.
10:07There is a red alert for the next 24 hours issued by the Met Department.
10:12So what you see on your screens there of the rivers in spade,
10:15of so much of flooding that could actually get worse.
10:18And how much really can towns like Deiradun actually take on
10:23looking at the damage that's already been created?
10:27Very concerning.
10:28And like Ankit pointed out,
10:30it looks like it's only going to get worse going forward in the next few days.
10:38But just to give you a sense of really the scale of destruction
10:42that's been caused in the last 24 hours alone
10:44in Deiradun and other parts of Uttarakhand,
10:47let's get you some of those images coming in.
10:53Floodwaters on the roads of the Sahasradhara
10:56have overturned vehicles
10:57and nearby residents have been advised to stay away from the raging waters.
11:01Shops and homes clearly submerged.
11:08Uttarakhand Chief Minister Pushkar Singh Dhami
11:10along with his team visited their disaster-affected areas
11:13for an on-site inspection.
11:15And these were areas which are very badly affected.
11:19Roads have been completely washed away.
11:20So getting to these locations itself
11:22is a huge, huge challenge.
11:27In Uttarakhand's Grave Nagar,
11:29an NDRF team successfully rescued a person
11:31who was trapped with an electricity pole
11:34in the Smolentonk River.
11:36The administration remains on high alert
11:39amid the disaster
11:40because there are many, many such rescues
11:42that are needed now.
11:47This is the Sahasradhara market in Deiradun
11:51that's been submerged.
11:52Usually a bustling market.
11:54Now there's only water
11:55going right through the area
11:57and floodwaters continue to surge through the area.
12:00All shops are shut.
12:02For now in this particular area,
12:03there's been no reports of loss of life
12:06or of property.
12:07Now with these cloudbursts,
12:15with these floods,
12:16there are so many people
12:18who are impacted
12:19beyond what you see
12:20in the destruction and devastation.
12:21For example,
12:22in Kashmir,
12:23apple supply completely hit.
12:26Thousands of tons of apples
12:28are actually rotting
12:29in trucks
12:29that are stranded
12:30along the Srinagar-Jammu National Highway
12:32that's actually been closed
12:34for the last 20 days.
12:35And there's nothing you can do about it
12:37because the roads
12:38have been completely washed away.
12:39So it's extremely dangerous
12:40to open up these highways as well.
12:42Farmers not sure
12:43about what to do
12:44with all of this produce.
12:45You can see the decaying
12:47and rotten apples there.
12:48Angry farmers, therefore,
12:49are protesting
12:50the government's inaction.
12:52Viral images
12:53showing piles of spoiled apples
12:55now dumped near the road.
12:57Kashmir accounts for 80%
12:58of India's apple production.
13:00And so the prolonged closure
13:01has severely disrupted
13:02the supply chain.
13:04All right,
13:21let's move on
13:22to the Supreme Court
13:23having given a clean chit
13:24to Vantara.
13:25All allegations
13:26of smuggling,
13:27violation of statutory laws
13:29and sourcing animals
13:30have been dropped.
13:31The court categorically stated
13:33that there was nothing wrong
13:34with the transfer
13:34of temple elephants
13:35to Reliance Foundation's
13:37Vantara initiative
13:38as long as due procedure
13:40was followed.
13:42The top court bench
13:43noted that the committee
13:44appointed to examine
13:45the issue
13:45had submitted its report
13:46which recorded
13:47satisfaction
13:48with the regulatory compliance.
13:50The top court
13:50not only gave a clean chit
13:51to Vantara
13:52but also said
13:52that no court
13:53or administrative forum
13:55in the country
13:55will entertain
13:56any complaint
13:57or proceedings
13:57on these allegations
13:58in future.
13:59Now the order
14:00of the EPEX court
14:01was based on
14:02a special investigation
14:03team report
14:05an SIT report
14:05chaired by former
14:06Supreme Court Judge
14:07Jasthi Chalameshwar
14:08along with three
14:09other members.
14:10In a big development
14:15today
14:15the top court
14:16of the country
14:16has issued notices
14:17to many states
14:18challenging
14:19the anti-conversion
14:21law in these states.
14:22Some of these states
14:23including
14:24Uttar Pradesh
14:24Madhya Pradesh
14:25Shemachal Pradesh
14:26Uttarakhand
14:27Rajasthan
14:28a state like Rajasthan
14:29has some stringent
14:30anti-conversion laws
14:31which can actually
14:32put you behind
14:33bars for life.
14:34The petitioners say
14:35that these laws
14:37are being misused
14:38especially when
14:38inter-religious
14:39couples are concerned.
14:41The top court
14:41of the country
14:42today has now
14:43given four weeks
14:44time for these
14:45states to respond
14:46on the anti-conversion
14:48law in their state.
14:51The Supreme Court
14:52has asked several
14:53states to form
14:54responses on
14:55petitions
14:56challenging
14:57anti-conversion
14:58laws.
14:59They have been
14:59granted four weeks
15:00to respond.
15:02The petitioners
15:02have claimed
15:03that the laws
15:04were being used
15:05to harass
15:05inter-religious
15:07couples and
15:08restrict religious
15:09observances.
15:11The states
15:11notified by the
15:12Apex Court
15:13in the matter
15:14include
15:14Uttar Pradesh,
15:15Madhya Pradesh,
15:16Himachal Pradesh,
15:18Uttarakhand,
15:19Chhattisgarh,
15:19Gujarat,
15:20Haryana,
15:21Jharkhand and
15:22Karnataka.
15:24The petitions
15:26brought by
15:26various organizations
15:28including
15:28Jamaite Ulema Hind
15:30and Citizens
15:31for Justice
15:32and Peace
15:32allege that
15:33the anti-conversion
15:34laws are being
15:35weaponized to
15:36target individuals
15:38from different
15:38religious backgrounds.
15:40Now both the
15:41petitioners and
15:42the respondent states
15:43have been given
15:44a time-bound
15:45opportunity to
15:47present comprehensive
15:48arguments.
15:50It's a batch of
15:51petitions which
15:52have been filed
15:53by a range of
15:54petitioners
15:55challenging the
15:57different laws
15:58passed by states
16:00which go under
16:01the name of
16:03freedom of religion
16:04but that is
16:05actually more of
16:06a misnomer.
16:08What these laws
16:08actually do is
16:09to create so
16:12many hurdles in
16:13the exercise of
16:14freedom of
16:15conscience as
16:16well as people
16:18who may choose
16:19to voluntarily
16:20freely convert
16:22or make
16:24marriages of
16:24their choice.
16:25The bench
16:27of Chief Justice
16:28of India
16:28B.R. Gawai
16:29and Justice
16:30K. Vinod Chandra
16:31would consider
16:32whether to
16:32grant a stay
16:33on the operation
16:34of the laws
16:35after receiving
16:36responses from
16:37the states.
16:38The next
16:39hearing on the
16:39matter is
16:40scheduled to
16:41take place
16:41in six weeks
16:42with Anisha
16:43Mathur,
16:44Bureau Report,
16:45India Today.
16:46I want to
16:47cut across right
16:48now to our
16:48legal correspondent
16:49Anisha Mathur
16:50who is joining
16:50us live for more.
16:51Anisha, can you
16:52get us up to
16:52speed with the
16:53latest development
16:53coming in from
16:54the top court?
16:55Some of these
16:56laws in certain
16:57states have been
16:58deeply contentious.
16:59For example,
17:00Rajasthan where
17:01somebody can be
17:02put behind bars
17:03under the
17:03anti-conversion
17:04law for life.
17:06Well, yes,
17:06Priti, we've seen
17:07these petitions
17:08remain pending
17:09for almost
17:09four or five
17:10years now.
17:11Some of these
17:12petitions,
17:12particularly those
17:13which challenged
17:13the UP anti-conversion
17:15law, the MP
17:17conversion law,
17:18have been pending
17:19since 2020.
17:20And now,
17:21fresh applications
17:22have been moved
17:22saying that these
17:23matters need to
17:24be heard on an
17:25urgent basis,
17:26especially since
17:26some states,
17:27including Rajasthan,
17:29UP, Madhya Pradesh,
17:30are coming up
17:31with amendments
17:31to these laws
17:32which are making
17:33them even stricter.
17:34One of the
17:35arguments that
17:35was made before
17:37the court today
17:37was that with
17:39these recent
17:40amendments,
17:41with the newer
17:41laws being brought
17:42by some of the
17:43states, as you
17:43said, Rajasthan,
17:45the punishments
17:46are getting stricter,
17:47the people who
17:48can complain
17:49regarding fraudulent
17:51conversions is being
17:53made more arbitrary
17:54and that is where
17:56senior advocate
17:56CU Singh had argued
17:57today that this
17:59will cause a problem
18:00and this is being
18:01in fact used in
18:02some states to
18:03harass couples who
18:04are in inter-religious
18:05relationships.
18:07It is even being
18:08used in some areas
18:10to cause problems
18:11when it comes to
18:12religious observances.
18:14In fact,
18:14even for festivals
18:16of certain religions
18:18which are being
18:19held, even there
18:20some mobs have
18:21come in and
18:21these were the
18:22examples that were
18:23given before the
18:24court by the
18:26lawyers saying
18:27that there must
18:28be a stay on
18:29operation,
18:30particularly of
18:31these amended
18:31provisions because
18:33first of all what
18:33they have done is
18:35made the anti-conversion
18:37law extremely
18:37stringent.
18:38Minimum 7 years
18:39to 20 years of
18:41imprisonment is now
18:44an option.
18:45In fact,
18:45even life imprisonment
18:46for fraudulent or
18:47deceitful conversion.
18:48How a provision
18:50is considered,
18:51how a conversion
18:52is considered
18:53fraudulent or
18:55deceptive is
18:56something that is
18:56not defined.
18:58This is something
18:58that even the
18:59court has questioned
19:00how exactly is
19:01somebody saying
19:02that XYZ has
19:03converted through
19:04fraud.
19:05That needs to be
19:06defined properly.
19:06So a lot of
19:07questions are being
19:08asked about these
19:09laws and remember
19:09there are at least
19:1010 states in the
19:11country which have
19:12these extremely
19:13stringent laws.
19:14So after 4 weeks
19:15now all of these
19:16states will file
19:16their response.
19:17Back to you.
19:19Right.
19:19Anisha, after 4 weeks
19:20time for all of
19:21these states to file
19:23in their responses
19:24but some of the
19:25petitioners,
19:25Anisha, are actually
19:26inter-religious
19:27married couples
19:28where laws of
19:30anti-conversion
19:31have been slapped.
19:32Well, yes, Preeti, if
19:33you see what the
19:34petitions are in the
19:35court, there are
19:36about 15 petitions
19:37before the court
19:37including in fact
19:38the soomotor matter
19:39that the Supreme
19:40Court itself had
19:41taken up in 2022.
19:43This was when some
19:44reports had come in
19:45of inter-religious
19:47couples being harassed.
19:48There were in fact
19:49petitions filed by
19:50some couples who
19:51said that we've had
19:51to run away and
19:53seek police protection
19:54because these laws
19:56are being misused
19:57against us.
19:57So, we'll have to
19:58see how this is
19:59going to be taken
20:00up because these
20:02matters, as I said,
20:03have been pending
20:03for several years
20:04now.
20:04The initial petitions
20:05had come in back
20:06in 2020 when the
20:08UP law had come in
20:09and the questions
20:10about harassment,
20:11the questions about
20:12harassing not just
20:14couples but also
20:15religious practitioners
20:17about interfering in
20:19religious ceremonies,
20:20those have been
20:21raised multiple times
20:22and now once again
20:23with these petitions
20:23now saying there
20:24must be a stay on
20:26these acts and
20:27particularly
20:27on the new
20:28amendments,
20:29we'll see what
20:29happens after six
20:30weeks when the
20:31matters are taken
20:31up again.
20:32Back to you.
20:34All right, Anisha,
20:35I appreciate you
20:35joining us.
20:36All right, we as
20:36well, that's the
20:37latest development
20:38that happened today
20:39but let's cut
20:40across to a
20:41controversy that's
20:42brewing in
20:43Karnataka where
20:44it comes down to
20:44conversion.
20:45The Chief Minister
20:46Siddharamaya's one
20:47comment has led to
20:48a massive political
20:50ideological blowout
20:51where he said
20:51inequality in
20:53Hinduism exists,
20:54that's why there
20:55was conversion.
20:56What began as a
20:57statement on freedom
20:58of faith has now
20:59escalated into a
21:00full-blown political
21:02war.
21:02The BJP accusing
21:04the Congress of
21:04targeting Hindu
21:05belief.
21:06If there was
21:10equality, there
21:12would be no
21:12conversion.
21:14In Hinduism, if
21:15there was equality,
21:17nobody would
21:18convert.
21:20It's over these
21:21comments by
21:22Karnataka Chief
21:22Minister Siddharamaya
21:23that a polarizing
21:25religion fight has
21:26taken center stage.
21:28Siddharamaya, while
21:29speaking on the
21:30contentious issue of
21:31conversions, claimed
21:32that it was due to
21:34inequality in
21:35Hinduism.
21:35conversion of
21:37other people
21:38before.
21:40When I was
21:41asked, I was
21:43to have a
21:43conversion.
21:44In our
21:45society, the
21:46Hindu
21:47society, the
21:49people, are
21:50there.
21:50Why is
21:51there?
21:52There is
21:53equal
21:54opportunities,
21:55there is
21:56equal
21:57opportunities,
21:58there is
22:00there.
22:01There is
22:02Sidharamaya then suggested that conversions have nothing to do with political parties,
22:11highlighting that it was people's choice to do so.
22:32But this comment by the Karnataka chief minister has left the BGP fuming,
22:40accusing Sidharamaya of only speaking of inequalities in Hinduism and not other religions.
22:47Is there any equality in other religions?
22:51I don't want to elaborate because it is going to hurt people.
22:54But no religion can bring equality.
23:00Today, religion is made on a hierarchical basis, all the religions.
23:06This government, unconstitutionally, first of all, they don't have a right to do census.
23:15But the Congress is brazing it out, with ministers like Priyank Karge firing a Manu Smriti counter
23:21to highlight that inequalities do exist in Hinduism.
23:24Hindu religion, there is the Chaturvarna, where people are segregated based on the work
23:32they do in society.
23:34And it is very aptly clear that certain sections of the society were not entertained in that
23:39ambit.
23:41And that's why many of them started new religions.
23:44Why did Sikhism start?
23:46Why did Jainism start?
23:47Why did Buddhism start?
23:48Why did Lingayatism start in Karnataka?
23:51All these religions started because there was inequality in the prevalent religions then.
23:58BJP is trying to protect the Varna system.
24:01BJP doesn't want anybody to question the hierarchical system where human beings have been made to
24:08believe that you are of lower Varna, you belong to this kind of a class and caste, you have
24:14to do only this particular work.
24:16It is a fact that the majority of the population in the Hindu religion does not get the opportunity
24:26that the upper communities, the cream of that religion gets.
24:33With the BJP renewing its anti-Hindu attack at Congress, it remains to be seen if Sidharamaya
24:39will backtrack or stand by his remarks.
24:42Bera Report, India Today.
24:46All right, let's quickly cut across to our guest this evening.
24:52Joining me, Surabhi Hodiger, spokesperson BJP, Lavanya Ballal, spokesperson Congress, Dr.
24:58Sandeep Shastri, political analyst.
25:00Dr. Shastri, you know, it's interesting because it's a politically loaded statement that the
25:05chief minister of Karnataka had made, but it doesn't come without context and audience
25:10because a lot of the same interplay where you, you know, you might be speaking about
25:15conversion here.
25:15But he's addressing the extremely backward caste, the Dalits and even the OBCs.
25:24I think there is no question of doubt that what the chief minister said about inequality
25:34within the Hindu religion is a reality.
25:38But then to stretch that and say, because of this inequality within Hindu religion and
25:44linking that to conversions, I think is stretching a comment beyond what it should be stretched.
25:52It's overstepping or overstretching, I would say, an argument or a very, very liberal interpretation
25:58of what is reality.
26:00So while I concede the point that Hinduism has been marked by tremendous inequality and
26:05that fight must go on for social justice, I would be a little hesitant in linking that
26:12inequality within Hinduism to the consequence of conversion.
26:19I don't see that as a direct relationship.
26:21I see them as two distinctly different set of issues and that needs to be recognized.
26:31But, you know, but Dr. Shastri, if you look at it, traditionally for many castes, especially,
26:36you know, and history stands testimony to it, of those castes that have fallen through the
26:42crevices of social integration have usually then gravitated towards a certain faith.
26:48We've seen those mass conversions, you know, that have happened in the Dalit belts of Northern
26:53India or even where the tribals of the Northeast are concerned.
26:59Even if that were to be conceded, I think we also need to remember the counter-argument
27:06that is coming up that if conversion happened because of the inequality in Hinduism, did it
27:13go away after conversion?
27:14No, it did not.
27:16Because the same system of hierarchy continued where they went to.
27:20So, I think we need to separate these facts beyond a shadow of doubt.
27:25Conversion on fraud, allurement and personal gain should not happen.
27:29Also concede the fact that inequality within Hinduism is a reality and that should be fought
27:35and that social justice should be achieved.
27:37However, linking the two could be a little hesitant in doing that.
27:45All right, okay.
27:46I want to bring in Lavanya Balal into this conversation.
27:49Lavanya Balal, it's a politically loaded statement.
27:51You might be talking to a particular constituency, but having what it looks like optics-wise and
27:56what Dr. Shastri also says, you're overstretching it by stating that conversion happens because
28:01there are caste inequalities, you're practically giving a free pass to conversion.
28:09Good evening, Priti.
28:10If you look at Karnataka's case where we have anti-conversion laws that were enacted by the
28:16BJP government, the previous government in Karnataka, the current one.
28:20At that point of time, there was one BJP MLA, Mr. Guli Hatti Shekhar, who said his mother
28:27was forcefully converted to Christianity and there is a village where people have been
28:32forcefully converted to Christianity.
28:34So the government, the then government, the BJP government did the right thing in setting
28:39up a committee to look to these accusations.
28:43And the people there, including Mr. Haurati's mother, she said, no one has forced me to convert
28:49and I find more peace and happiness after conversion.
28:54Now when Mr. Shastri says, we cannot link it, it is, you know, stretching it a little bit.
29:00Now the question is, most of the times, Priti, when you're on social media, people from the
29:05BJP ecosystem, mogul Christians say, rise backs.
29:09They also say, your ancestors converted or you are converting to bags of rice.
29:15Now this raises a question, answer multiple times.
29:18People have said that, that people who belong to the oppressed communities are looked down
29:24upon and they are treated so badly, all that they want is a better social standing and that
29:30is why they convert.
29:31Now if you look at the atrocities on Dalits in India, UP, Rajasthan and Madhya Pradesh top the
29:38list of atrocities, but that does not mean it does not exist in Karnataka or in any other state.
29:44Four years ago in Kolar, when a boy from the Dalit community touched a god in the procession,
29:50the, you know, entire family was boycotted.
29:54There is a case in Tamil Nadu just a few months ago where a Dalit man bought a bullet bike and his
30:00hand was chopped. Please tell me which human being would agree continuously be subjugated these kind
30:09of atrocities and profiling because he belongs to a particular caste and not go to a place where maybe
30:17he's offered better opportunities. CM Sidramaya also made a very pertinent statement yesterday that if
30:23you convert, once you convert, you will lose all the benefits of previous community that you were.
30:30For example, if I'm a Dalit and I convert to Christianity tomorrow or Islam tomorrow,
30:35I will lose all the benefits that a Dalit can avail in Karnataka state.
30:39I want to go across to the BJP spokesperson, Surubhi here. Surubhi, the fact is, you know,
30:49it's a statement which the Congress says is being misconstrued, but it's also rooted in history where
30:56we've seen conversion across the country, especially where the tribal belts are concerned or the
31:01extremely backwards or the Dalit where it's given them social legitimacy.
31:05The constituency the Chief Minister is speaking to when he makes a statement like this is not the
31:11back word. It's not the Dalits. It is a bunch of people who like to hear about the ills of the
31:17faith that shaped this land on a constant basis, whether it was Dharmastalla, whether it was Madhur
31:22or elsewhere in Karnataka in the last couple of days. What we're speaking about here is social
31:27inequality that exists across religions. Unfortunately, if that were not true, I re-instate the point made
31:34by Mr. Sandeep Shastri. Today in Karnataka, when the survey, the caste survey is taking place,
31:39there is a Madhiga Christian, there is a Brahmin Christian. All these categories are putting,
31:44coming forth, which is to go on and show that that inequality has pervaded religion. So that's
31:50something that we have to accept. Every society has its ills. We have ours too. We have also had a
31:55Baswarna. We have also had a Kanakadasa. We've had all these great social reformers who have spoken
32:01again and again about the ills in society that needed to be fixed. We fix our homes. That is the
32:06that is the larger message. For a CM, for a chief minister, when the caste survey is being about to
32:11be conducted, for him to make a statement like this, sorry, what was the need? I don't see him
32:17going around and making statements about other religions and their flaws, saying that women are
32:21not allowed to be, you know, go into the mosques, women are not allowed to do so and so in other places.
32:26We need to fight against the social ills that exist in our country, in every faith. But that is not to
32:33single out and call out and say something. And to say that conversion happens merely because of
32:37inequality is also to forget certain history, Briti, where conversion has happened because of this war,
32:43where conversion has happened because a colonized population did not have access to resources.
32:48These sort of things also need to be accounted for. We've also seen viral videos across social media,
32:54where conversion happens because of superstitious beliefs, because of allurement. That is why an
33:00anti-conversion law comes into place. And let us remember again, there is a difference between the
33:05faiths that we're talking about. Sanat and Dharma does not have the concept of a conversion. You believe
33:10in X, Y, Z, A, Y, A, B, A, B, C, D, whatever it is, you go to the same God. Whereas there are certain
33:15faiths that do have that concept. Therefore, we need to be able to protect our believers. Therefore,
33:21such laws are imperative, not just in Karnataka, not just in the States. It is constitutionally
33:26also verified that you should not have conversions on a consented basis. Therefore, what the CM has
33:33said today is not to speak to any audience, but to his audience that likes to again and again demean
33:40one faith at the cost of another.
33:44All right, I'm going to just take final comments. I know, Davana, you want to come in,
33:47but I want to bring in Dr. Shastri. Dr. Shastri, do you think this is a political faux pas
33:51or Siddharamaya looking to address a particular constituency?
33:54Today's political debate, every point that people made are taken in context, out of context,
34:05beyond context, behind the words, all those become important. So I think it's critical for those in
34:10the public domain to understand that what they say can have multiple implications. Going back to the
34:17Chief Minister's statement, I am one with the Chief Minister in believing that inequality is a reality
34:25and needs to be fiercely dealt with. We have not taken enough steps, we have not been strong enough,
34:33we have not been assertive enough to deal with this inequality. Yet in the same breath to then say
34:42that this inequality as a by-product produces conversion, I would be a little hesitant in saying
34:49that. Conversion has been a result of a range of factors and the Supreme Court of course has maintained
34:57it should not be on fraud, allurement and personal gain, but then these terms are subject to very,
35:04very flexible interpretation. So I think the Chief Minister was making number one
35:11a right point. But when that point continued, it seemed to stretch into an argument which can be
35:20controversial or can be contested. So yes, inequality in Hindu society is a reality which needs to be
35:28challenged. Does that inequality by itself and in a vacuum reside in conversion? I think there are
35:37people like me who have our reservations on that particular point.
35:43Labane Balal, would you want to come in and weigh in on it? Because, you know, at one end,
35:48many would suggest there's really nothing wrong with what Sidhara Maya, the Chief Minister said. But on
35:52the other account, taking off from what Dr. Shastri said, maybe you're stretching it a bit much. When
35:56there, you know, there is so much nuance where conversion in India has come into question. And
36:03this is one area where your party has always, you know, been challenged, been questioned that you
36:08gaslight. You don't want to accept that there have been conversions, which have been beyond just
36:14inequality.
36:15I would like to remind everybody of Article 25 of Indian Constitution, which gives me the right to
36:21practice any religion I want to. Today, I am building Hindu temples. I am, you know, one of the major
36:28contributors to multiple Hindu temples. Does that mean tomorrow I'm not allowed to do that because of
36:35the narrow confines by which the BJP is defining it? Also, when we are talking about conversion, let us not
36:41forget the inequality that exists. When people are saying, oh, there is a caste survey in Karnataka,
36:46I'm sorry, it is a socio-economic survey of the backward community and not a caste survey. I think
36:51people should get that, you know, term correct because there is huge difference between a caste
36:55survey and a socio-economic survey. Also, Preeti, I would have appreciated it if somebody on the debate
37:00was here who has converted or who has seen up close and personally somebody being converted. I'll tell you
37:07what, I have been witness to one of the first Garvapsis in India and I've seen the impact that it had on
37:13his life, Preeti, and it was not nice. It was a Garvapsi case and I've seen that. We are not gaslighting. We will
37:20stand by people who want to practice any religion that they want to. We will object to anybody being
37:27converted forcefully or, you know, through allurement. But we will also object to draconian laws that are brought to
37:36harass people under the guise of anti-conversion laws.
37:39Well, that law has already been contended and we did speak about it. Today, the Supreme Court has
37:46given a four-week notice for all states to come up on. But quickly, I want to bring in the BJP
37:52spokesperson, Surabhi, into this conversation. She wanted to come in for a rebuttal. Surabhi, go ahead.
37:56This entire conversation, I've heard the Congress say that conversion out of Hinduism because of,
38:01you know, through anecdotal evidence also, because of inequalities is something we must support. But
38:05reconversion back to Hinduism is something that anecdotally is telling us that it's bad.
38:10Either of these things have zero, you know, data to back them, nor do they have any sort of
38:16economity in it. If somebody wants to practice a certain faith, that is their individual decision.
38:21What we are against is forced conversions, allurement. All of these, I'm sure that the
38:25Congress also agrees because this is something that they have also spoken for from the founding stages.
38:29Why have they suddenly changed their mind? They've changed their minds because they want to speak to
38:33a certain, you know, set of people for whom talking about, I want to state this again,
38:38talking about the ills in one society versus no ills in the other society catches votes. I don't
38:43understand. Why is that so incredibly important? The backdrop also, Ms. Lavanya Vallar, is that we
38:49are going through a jati samikshay. This is your words of your leaders here in Karnataka,
38:54which translates to caste survey. You're doing a socioeconomic survey, fine. You recently did an
38:59SEST survey, you know, which was only 57% coverage. You should have done that better,
39:03given your government's absolute concern for the most backward. You did not do that properly.
39:09We have also had a situation where this survey that's going to be done, we don't know whether
39:14it's going to produce the results or not. There are technical questions on it.
39:17So instead of going round around these arguments, why conversion should happen, not the ills in Hinduism,
39:22not doing anthropological studies on what worked or didn't work, run your government in such a way that it
39:27impacts the people who have the least released. We have that concern. We are doing a caste census
39:32across the country to ensure, you know, there is... Okay, you know, I know Lavanya Vallar wants to
39:35come in. I really don't have the time. I'm going to leave it at that. I appreciate,
39:39I appreciate all three of you for joining us this evening. We're going to let it be. We're going to
39:42leave it for our viewers to decide on where they stand on the comment of Mr. Sidhara Maya,
39:47because clearly it's found an echo where Karnataka is concerned. But the larger debate is also around
39:54what the Supreme Court has said, asking many states to come up with their response on the
40:00anti-conversion law in their state.
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