- 2 days ago
Grammy and Oscar-nominated singer-songwriter Patty Smyth on Joann Butler In Studio With talks Scandal stories, Eddie Van Halen, life with husband John McEnroe. Plus Andy Kaufman, breaking MTV, performing with Bill Murray, and her Café Carlyle debut with a special five-night engagement in New York City.
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00:00:00Is it true that Eddie Van Halen asked you to take over for David Lee Roth when he left
00:00:04the band?
00:00:05He said, I got to know.
00:00:06He got to let me know now.
00:00:07And I just was like, no, I can't do it.
00:00:09Those decisions I made without really thinking it through.
00:00:12But I was like, I'm really pregnant.
00:00:14I don't want to move to LA.
00:00:16Rock and roll was sexist, let's face it.
00:00:18Hate to say it, even though I love it, it was not that women friendly.
00:00:22You mentioned your mom, a fascinating life.
00:00:25My mom ran away to the circus when she was 16.
00:00:28She was a trapeze artist.
00:00:30She hung by her teeth.
00:00:31A lot of people don't know this, but when I was 15, I opened for Andy Kaufman.
00:00:35Nobody knew who he was.
00:00:36That was the first time I saw him.
00:00:37I could barely play the guitar.
00:00:39You're married to John McEnroe.
00:00:41I was like scared of him in a good sort of way.
00:00:44He can be scared.
00:00:45I have a way worse temper than him.
00:00:46And he's like the one that's like calming me down.
00:00:49What about Goodbye To You?
00:00:51I finished the song, but I didn't know that.
00:00:53His name is on that song, not my name.
00:00:55I have to set the record straight once in a while.
00:00:57Hi, you're watching Joanne Butler in studio with me, Patti Smythe.
00:01:02Patti Smythe in the house.
00:01:04I'm so happy to have you here.
00:01:06Thanks for joining us.
00:01:07Thanks for having me.
00:01:09Happy to be here.
00:01:10I made it eventually.
00:01:12Yay.
00:01:12So what do you got going on?
00:01:14You got some stuff going on, some shows happening back on the road.
00:01:17Yeah, I'm doing a few shows.
00:01:19I'm going actually in a couple of weeks or 10 days out to Sacramento.
00:01:23I'm going to open for Pat Benatar.
00:01:26Cool.
00:01:26That'll be fun.
00:01:27So I'm going out there for a week and then I come back and then I've got the Carlisle in
00:01:30New York.
00:01:48Carlisle.
00:01:48Thanks.
00:01:48I mean, everyone keeps asking me that if I'm going to start singing the American Songbook.
00:01:53And I'm like, not yet.
00:01:54Why are they asking you that?
00:01:55I started out singing that when I first took vocal lessons.
00:01:58You know, so I mean, they're beautiful songs.
00:02:00They're good to learn by.
00:02:01But I think because it's the Carlisle and I'm older now.
00:02:04What are you going to sing?
00:02:05What are fans going to get?
00:02:06I think they're going to get what they want.
00:02:08You know, I like to give the fans what they want.
00:02:10But I think the idea that I kind of because I'm still it's still I'm still fleshing it out.
00:02:15But because I'm a songwriter also and I'm going to have a couple of friends who are songwriters come and,
00:02:20you know, just sort of talk about the process.
00:02:22And like there's a whole batch of songs that I wrote about so many people I know in my life.
00:02:26And they were like, don't write a song about me because, you know, they're not totally positive.
00:02:30All of them.
00:02:31Some of them are, you know, maybe sad or funny.
00:02:34Well, that's not true.
00:02:35Some of them.
00:02:36I've written a couple of songs for John and my sister and stuff.
00:02:39And I'm also incorporating in the songs that I grew up on, the songs that really sort of like turn
00:02:45the light on.
00:02:46I was talking to somebody, a friend of mine, who's a singer today.
00:02:49I'm like, you know, those songs that turn the light on.
00:02:51That's what I want to do.
00:02:52Or the ones that you just couldn't stop singing and playing over and over.
00:02:56So I'm bringing some of those out.
00:02:58Some Mule Young.
00:03:00Maybe I actually even was thinking about doing some crazy old folk song because my mom ran a song.
00:03:05I ran folk clubs in the village when I was growing up.
00:03:08So that was really the beginning.
00:03:10You know, Joan Baez and Bob Dylan and all that.
00:03:13So I'm just going to play around with it and just have fun.
00:03:16I mean, it's like having people come to your living room.
00:03:19That's how intimate it is, which is fun.
00:03:21It sure is.
00:03:22But I'm going to have a full band, though.
00:03:24Are you?
00:03:24Okay.
00:03:25Are you going to tell us who the surprise guests are going to be or are you going to surprise
00:03:28people?
00:03:29Yeah, I think I'll leave it a surprise.
00:03:31The Carlisle is really special.
00:03:32Yeah.
00:03:33It is.
00:03:34I'm happy.
00:03:35I did a Christmas show with Bill Murray there last year and I did four out of the five nights
00:03:39because the opening night I had a very special birthday party that I didn't want to miss.
00:03:44But it was really fun doing that.
00:03:47Crazy but fun because I had to learn all these songs and I finally learned them on the last night.
00:03:52Oh, wow.
00:03:52Yeah.
00:03:53Which is okay.
00:03:54You were winging it.
00:03:54I was winging it.
00:03:55Yeah.
00:03:57I don't love winging it, but I was winging it.
00:03:59Yeah.
00:04:00So take us back.
00:04:01You mentioned your mom.
00:04:02A fascinating life.
00:04:04I never knew that until I...
00:04:06That's not even the most fascinating thing about my mom.
00:04:08It's wild.
00:04:09My mom ran away to the circus when she was 16 with her two best friends who were twins.
00:04:15They grew up in Garrison Beach, Long Island.
00:04:18There was a local little dance studio there and I think they were doing acrobatics in their yard.
00:04:22And they heard that Cole Brothers Circus was doing auditions here in Manhattan like on 8th Avenue and 34th Street
00:04:28or something.
00:04:29And so they took the train in and they auditioned and they got in, which is crazy.
00:04:33I mean, these three young girls from Brooklyn, I think the twins were a year younger than her or a
00:04:38year older.
00:04:39And so they went...
00:04:40My grandfather didn't know, but my grandmother knew and, you know, signed the paper that my mom needed.
00:04:46And she was on a circus train for two years.
00:04:49What was she doing?
00:04:50She was a trapeze artist.
00:04:51She hung by her teeth.
00:04:53She did the...
00:04:54It's called Jaws of Steel, which is crazy.
00:04:57She did the web, which was a really, really difficult thing to do.
00:05:00And she rode the elephants too.
00:05:03I know it's, it's crazy.
00:05:04I don't think I found that out until I was like 10 years old.
00:05:07Like she made an offhand remark about the circus.
00:05:09I'm like, what?
00:05:11I was my mom.
00:05:12And then she, since she managed Link Ray, when I was in middle school, him and his band lived in
00:05:16our four room apartment in Brooklyn.
00:05:18We were like in a tenement building, four story walk up.
00:05:22And his band was in our living, sleeping in our living room.
00:05:25All four of them.
00:05:25Wow.
00:05:26Which was, that was amazing.
00:05:27I think that was one of those moments for me in my life when I happened to be in my
00:05:31room singing.
00:05:32I was always singing when I was a kid.
00:05:33It was annoying how much I sang, I think.
00:05:35But you know that whole Gladwell thing with the 10,000 hours?
00:05:39I think that's very true.
00:05:40It's very right on.
00:05:42But anyway, he heard me.
00:05:43Link heard me singing in the room and he called me in.
00:05:46And he said, what were you singing?
00:05:48And I sang it back to him.
00:05:49And that was when I knew that he liked it.
00:05:52Do you know what I mean?
00:05:52Like he gave me his seal of approval, kind of.
00:05:54I don't remember exactly what he said.
00:05:56How old were you?
00:05:58But those are 12 or 13.
00:05:59Wow.
00:05:59Probably 13.
00:05:59Yeah.
00:06:00I know.
00:06:01So that was great.
00:06:02And he was lovely.
00:06:03My mom really tried to help them.
00:06:05It was very hard at that time, you know.
00:06:07It was like, whatever it was, 1970 or 71 or something.
00:06:12So.
00:06:12And she managed nightclubs?
00:06:13Before that, yeah.
00:06:15I guess before she managed Link Ray, she was in the village.
00:06:17She somehow started running, running clubs and then opened a few of her own.
00:06:21But she ran the Gaslight, the Four Winds.
00:06:25Yeah.
00:06:25It was, it was fun.
00:06:26I mean, I literally was on the stage dancing with bands.
00:06:30Like the Buffalo Springfield played there when I was a little girl.
00:06:32I would just, yeah.
00:06:34I think it was in my blood.
00:06:35I think it was in my blood.
00:06:36Yeah, I think.
00:06:36You had no choice, it sounds like.
00:06:38No, no.
00:06:39And obviously your mom was supportive.
00:06:42She was very supportive.
00:06:43And I probably went on stage the first time at her club.
00:06:48And then I, I don't know.
00:06:49A lot of people don't know this, but when I was 15, there was a club in Brooklyn.
00:06:53We were still living in Brooklyn.
00:06:55It was before I moved back to the city.
00:06:56And there was a club called Pips.
00:06:58It was a comedy club.
00:07:00Every comedian that you know played Pips back in the day.
00:07:03Like from Seinfeld to everybody.
00:07:05And I opened for Andy Kaufman.
00:07:07I was 15.
00:07:08Nobody knew who he was.
00:07:09That was the first time I saw him in.
00:07:10Oh, my gosh.
00:07:11That was pretty fun.
00:07:11I could barely play the guitar.
00:07:13But I knew George, the owner, so he let me open for it.
00:07:17What did you sing?
00:07:18Do you remember?
00:07:19I probably sang Sad Lisa, which was Fire and Rain probably.
00:07:23And Sad Lisa, you know, Cat Stevens, and I don't even know.
00:07:27I only did a few songs and I could barely, I mean I could sing, but I really couldn't play.
00:07:31I've only started taking guitar lessons the last two years now.
00:07:34So I can play now.
00:07:36Really?
00:07:37Yeah.
00:07:37Oh, wow.
00:07:38So then what?
00:07:39Like, then what happened?
00:07:41Oh, God.
00:07:42So much happened.
00:07:43I would say that that was the beginning.
00:07:46Like, you know, I was still a kid, so I did that.
00:07:48And then we moved to, then I got hit by a car.
00:07:51Oh, my gosh.
00:07:52Which precipitated me.
00:07:52Yeah, I was okay.
00:07:53I just broke my leg.
00:07:54But that precipitated us moving to the city, back to Manhattan, because we were in a four-story walk-up.
00:08:00And so I, my mom was running the gaslight then, the one that was on McDougal Street.
00:08:07And I put a little band together.
00:08:09I met these guys who, you know, we were all teenagers.
00:08:12So that was the beginning and just starting the playing.
00:08:14And then, you know, I went, but I was still in high school, so I went to school for a
00:08:17minute.
00:08:18I left home pretty early.
00:08:20I left home at 16, 16 and a half.
00:08:22So I was just sort of working and woodshedding music.
00:08:26That's what I, and going to high school.
00:08:27I had a job, was in high school, and then, you know, something had to give.
00:08:32So you can guess what gave.
00:08:33But anyway, I just, I would go over to people in clubs and I'd be like, can I sing with
00:08:38you?
00:08:38I mean, I would do that.
00:08:39I can't believe I did that now.
00:08:41But I would just, someone would be singing on a, in a club, I'd be like, can I sing with
00:08:44you?
00:08:44And every once in a while they would say yes.
00:08:46And they'd be like, oh my God.
00:08:47You know, because it wasn't like I couldn't sing, I could sing.
00:08:50I mean, but a lot of the time we're like, no, I don't think so.
00:08:54So that's what I was just bouncing around.
00:08:56And then I wound up going up to catch a rising star.
00:09:00And I, I had a friend who took me to the comedy club.
00:09:04And it turns out there was a, there was a talent night on Monday nights, I guess, or open mic
00:09:08auditions.
00:09:09And so I went up and I did that, which is funny.
00:09:13I have photos.
00:09:14I just found some photographs of that.
00:09:16I was wearing, because I'm friends with Bill Maher, who also started out and we met way back in the
00:09:20day.
00:09:21And I had on a dungaree jumpsuit, which he immediately made fun of when I sent him the picture.
00:09:27Yeah.
00:09:27And like everybody was coming up through catch.
00:09:30So I stayed and it was like three comics and a singer.
00:09:33And I loved it because it was so much fun.
00:09:35And all we did was laugh and hang out.
00:09:37So that was great.
00:09:39But Pat Benatar was right before me, like a year or two before me.
00:09:43And she was managed by Rick Newman, which is funny.
00:09:46So she would be there once in a while.
00:09:49It's just, it's, it's a strange way to get into the music business, but I'm so happy that I did.
00:09:54Yeah, it is.
00:09:55Yeah.
00:09:55Cause it was really funny.
00:09:57Yeah.
00:09:57Cause I lived in the East village, but I really wasn't into the punk scene because I liked really good
00:10:02singers and really great songs.
00:10:05And, you know, melodies and stuff like that.
00:10:06And I wasn't really, I was more into soul and R and B and then the early punk kind of
00:10:13a thing.
00:10:13I mean, there's obviously bands that wound up being great and having great songs and great players.
00:10:18But that wasn't really like, I kept getting Patti Smith's mail.
00:10:22Like, cause she lived like down the block or something.
00:10:24Said, I mean, maybe that should have been the tip off that I might've dropped Smythe, but I didn't.
00:10:31I tenaciously hung on to my father's name.
00:10:34I love that.
00:10:35What did your father do?
00:10:36He was a construction worker.
00:10:38He was like a Skywalker, him and the, and the Mohicans did the high, all the high rises and stuff
00:10:45like that.
00:10:45Oh my gosh.
00:10:46So a New Yorker always.
00:10:48Oh yeah.
00:10:49Wow.
00:10:50Yeah.
00:10:50I think he was born in Hell's Kitchen and then wound up in Garrison Beach.
00:10:54Yeah.
00:10:54So what singers did you like?
00:10:56Like what were your influences?
00:10:58That's like a tough one.
00:10:59I think if, if we went back and looked at how many, what my, I would have a different answer
00:11:04every single time, I think.
00:11:06But I'm going to say like, I guess, you know, the first record that I requested, you know, I have
00:11:11to say, I'm so lucky that I grew up when I did because Top 40 Radio had everything from like
00:11:16Tony Bennett to the Stones to Motown to great country music, you know, and you know, from Wichita Lineman.
00:11:25And I mean, it just was all over the map and it was really great to have so many different
00:11:29influences because you don't have that anymore.
00:11:31It's like, so everything is so in their own little, you know, lane.
00:11:36So that was great.
00:11:37So, I mean, the first album I requested from my mother was the Beatles, was the Beatles records.
00:11:41So that was the, when the beginning where like, I want my records, not your records anymore.
00:11:47Cause she had like Barbra Streisand and she had some good records, but yeah, I wanted my own records.
00:11:52So I would say the Beatles have to be up there.
00:11:55You know, I loved Janis Joplin.
00:11:57I loved Joan Baez in the beginning, you know, Led Zeppelin, but I loved Al Green.
00:12:03I loved Bowie, you know, there's so many, but I found Bowie later.
00:12:08I was, cause that, that time in the seventies was such a good soul time.
00:12:12And that's really, it was like rock and soul.
00:12:15That's kind of where I went and a little country.
00:12:17I always loved country because it's great stories and they're great singers.
00:12:20Yeah.
00:12:21I always loved Dolly Parton.
00:12:22Yeah.
00:12:23You know, and.
00:12:25Big loss.
00:12:26And Glenn.
00:12:26Yeah.
00:12:26And Glenn Campbell.
00:12:28I mean, they were just, he was a great guitar player.
00:12:30He was a good singer.
00:12:31So there's so many, Gladys Knight.
00:12:34I loved Aretha Franklin, but you know, when I listened to Aretha Franklin, I'm like, I'm
00:12:37never going to be able to sing that good, but I just was reaching.
00:12:40And I think that's what people need who are becoming singers or musicians, whoever it
00:12:45is, you got to reach, you know, and you have to.
00:12:48And I feel like there's not that many great singers around, honestly, for kids to kind
00:12:53of reach to that level.
00:12:54You know, that level of singing sort of passed away or passed on.
00:13:00Yes.
00:13:00Kind of.
00:13:00There's a few exceptions, but not as many.
00:13:03I mean, I'm so grateful for Marvin Gaye and Al Green and, you know, Robert Plant.
00:13:09Like, you know, so many.
00:13:10Are there any today that you particularly like?
00:13:13Okay.
00:13:14There are some good singers now.
00:13:16I mean, there's, you know, Pink is a good singer.
00:13:18She can really sing.
00:13:19I mean, she's not a kid, but you know, she's, I mean, I'm just going to go blank now about
00:13:24who do I like that I listen to.
00:13:26You know, my kids listen to so much rap music that I hear a lot, but I just feel like,
00:13:30all the girls sing like this now.
00:13:33Yes.
00:13:34And they're in these tiny voices.
00:13:36So I can't even tell if they can sing or not.
00:13:37It's like that shit on the mic, you know, when they're doing this shit.
00:13:40That's what the singing sounds like to me now.
00:13:42So, but maybe that's okay, you know, because it speaks to people.
00:13:47I mean, it seems to be popular and people like it.
00:13:51And it doesn't matter so much if you can go balls to the walls, you know, like, I mean,
00:13:56I guess it's all right.
00:13:57It's, it's song styling.
00:13:59Like when I was younger, I think I was a little bit more like you ought to be able
00:14:02to sing, but I love, but when you can really interpret a song and you tell the story, then
00:14:07that's, that's really what the, what the point is, right?
00:14:11Yes.
00:14:11And you could always hear every word that you said.
00:14:14Yeah.
00:14:15Which is nice.
00:14:16And your voice is so different.
00:14:17It really is.
00:14:19Did you do anything to hone it, you know, over the years or?
00:14:22No, I've been really neglecting it if anything else, but, because I don't really sing
00:14:27that much, but I've been lucky that I can still sing everything in the same key.
00:14:32For some reason, I shouldn't even say that out loud because it'll probably jinx me.
00:14:36But for some reason, you know, and I, I, at 30, I started to get like chronic sinus infections.
00:14:44Live in New York.
00:14:44I don't know what happened.
00:14:45I developed bad allergies.
00:14:46And that's when I went to a singing teacher.
00:14:48I went to this woman, Joan Lader, who, she teaches everyone on Broadway.
00:14:53And anyone who ever has to do a musical and a film, they go to, and she really is amazing.
00:14:59And I, she gave me speech therapy because back then, I mean, I don't have a high voice,
00:15:04but I was like, hi, how you doing?
00:15:05Nice to see you.
00:15:06Because I was, you know, beating the s*** on my vocal cords and my voice was getting
00:15:11lower and lower.
00:15:12And so my speaking voice was hurting my singing voice.
00:15:15So she taught me how to, you know, how to just get my, it was a weird thing of just
00:15:19like
00:15:20me, me, me, something like that.
00:15:21And it got my voice back to where it should be, which it was just a little bit lower than
00:15:26it was.
00:15:26And then she gives me all these crazy techniques.
00:15:28Like I warm up with a straw and water now.
00:15:31And it turns out a lot of people are doing that now.
00:15:33But because of her, I can still sing like and sing like in the same range.
00:15:39Thank God.
00:15:40So I don't do any, I'm so bad about it.
00:15:42You're good.
00:15:43You're right.
00:15:43Whatever you're doing, keep doing it.
00:15:45Thanks.
00:15:46At least I quit smoking.
00:15:47Oh, did you smoke?
00:15:49Yeah, but not a lot.
00:15:50But 15 years ago, I stopped.
00:15:52But where did I want to smoke in the studio?
00:15:54You know, that was when I really wanted to smoke.
00:15:56I wasn't a heavy smoker, but I'm sure that it's good that I don't smoke.
00:16:00Yes, for sure.
00:16:02Wait, I was out to dinner with my girls last night, my two youngest daughters.
00:16:05And they were like, we're really sorry that we ripped up.
00:16:07They still feel so guilty about flushing my cigarettes down the toilet.
00:16:10I think that might be because the toilet overflowed.
00:16:13But I was like, look, it's all right.
00:16:15I get it.
00:16:15You know, you were worried about me.
00:16:17They really scare kids.
00:16:18So they were like on me.
00:16:20That's great.
00:16:20Because of them, I quit.
00:16:22Oh, that's great.
00:16:23A lot of people, it's usually the other way around, right?
00:16:26Mm-hmm.
00:16:26My mom's, she's 96 now.
00:16:28She just stopped around 90, and I said she went downhill when she stopped smoking.
00:16:32That's our big thing.
00:16:33You shouldn't have saw that.
00:16:34Who knows?
00:16:35She could be right.
00:16:36God bless her, though.
00:16:37She's 96.
00:16:38My mom made it to 92.
00:16:3992.
00:16:40Aw.
00:16:41So she saw you become...
00:16:43Oh, yeah.
00:16:43I only lost her like...
00:16:45Beautiful.
00:16:45...10 months ago or something.
00:16:46Oh, wow.
00:16:47I'm so sorry.
00:16:48Gosh, that's...
00:16:48Yeah, that was hard.
00:16:50That was hard, yeah.
00:16:51Recent, I didn't realize.
00:16:52Mm-hmm.
00:16:53I can't talk about it.
00:16:54Yes.
00:16:55All right.
00:16:55Zach Smith's Scandal.
00:16:57Talk about Scandal.
00:16:58What do you want to know?
00:17:00Well, I mean, the origin story is that in between singing at Catch a Rising Star and the comic
00:17:06strip, I was waitressing at a steakhouse.
00:17:10I was working at the comic strip for a while, but I stopped working there as a waitress.
00:17:15I don't know why.
00:17:16I went to the steakhouse.
00:17:16It must have been better money.
00:17:17Who the hell knows?
00:17:18I went up.
00:17:19One day, it was my day off, and I went to pick up my girlfriend.
00:17:23We were going to go out after her shift was done.
00:17:25You know, you'd be done by 10.30 there.
00:17:2711 o'clock, we were going to go out and go dancing or whatever.
00:17:30And the payphone rang, and I picked up the payphone.
00:17:33I just like answered it, because I was sitting at the bar, and it was Zach Smith.
00:17:37And he was like, I'm looking for Patti Smythe.
00:17:39And I'm like, I'm Patti Smythe.
00:17:40And he's like, I've been trying to reach you.
00:17:43He asked me for my phone number after he complained to me that he couldn't reach me.
00:17:48Oh, that was what it was.
00:17:49I go, I'm listed, man.
00:17:50I mean, how hard is it to find me?
00:17:52Because remember, it cost money to be unlisted back in the day.
00:17:54So I was listed.
00:17:56So we had an argument the first time we spoke and probably the last time we spoke.
00:18:00That was kind of our dynamic a little bit.
00:18:02But he was pretty driven.
00:18:05He had demos already.
00:18:06He had Line On You and a couple of other songs in the studio that he had recorded with Elton
00:18:12John's band.
00:18:13He was like that guy.
00:18:14He came from advertising, big music fan also.
00:18:19And so he hired all these great musicians.
00:18:21But he didn't really have a singer yet.
00:18:23He wanted to become an audition or whatever.
00:18:26And I was having dinner with my mom that night.
00:18:28So I go, look, I'll come and meet you.
00:18:31But I'm bringing my mom because we have a...
00:18:34I would bring her too, your mom.
00:18:35Yeah.
00:18:36Well, I mean, you know, why not?
00:18:37I wasn't going to cancel my dinner with her.
00:18:39And anyway, I'm going into his house.
00:18:43He lived in a townhouse on the second floor up in the Upper East Side, of course.
00:18:46I was in the East Village.
00:18:48And a chick was coming out.
00:18:50He timed it on purpose.
00:18:51He was like a mind game guy.
00:18:53So somebody was coming out.
00:18:54As I was going, I go, I'm not auditioning for you, man.
00:18:57You know I can sing.
00:18:58So if you want me to do it, I'll do it.
00:18:59But I'm not singing in your living room right now.
00:19:02And that was it.
00:19:03Then he wanted me in his band.
00:19:05Awesome.
00:19:05Just because I had some toot, I guess.
00:19:08And it was great, except I think it freaked him out that I was good at it
00:19:13and that I was a good, fun person.
00:19:14And then, of course, I started to get the attention.
00:19:18But that's just what happens when you're the lead vocalist.
00:19:21You get the attention.
00:19:22And I was the only girl in the band.
00:19:23And I think he just, because it was his baby, he just really couldn't let go of it.
00:19:29And that hurt us.
00:19:31That hurt the band.
00:19:32It hurt the relationship, you know, like the friendship.
00:19:35Because we were never involved, even though his name is Smith and my name is Smythe.
00:19:39People assume that.
00:19:40But he was married to a very nice girl, Debbie,
00:19:43and who helped me with my clothes for the Goodbye to You video.
00:19:47He was a little bit too controlling.
00:19:48And so it became untenable.
00:19:51I just, I couldn't do it.
00:19:52I didn't even know that.
00:19:53Yeah.
00:19:54Yeah, so we just parted ways.
00:19:56Oh.
00:19:57During the Warrior album.
00:19:58But those songs, but the way you delivered them.
00:20:01No one else could deliver them.
00:20:02It was the way you delivered them.
00:20:03I don't know.
00:20:04I hope so.
00:20:05I don't know.
00:20:05I can't believe the way I delivered the Warrior in a way.
00:20:08But, you know, it was Mike Chapman, and I wanted to sing good for him.
00:20:12And there was, I knew when I heard the song, like, it'd be a fun song to sing.
00:20:16It's kind of goofy lyrics and the chorus a little bit, but the verse lyrics are great.
00:20:21And you could just kind of sink your teeth into it.
00:20:24I had, you know, I didn't really know how it was going to go.
00:20:27But I wanted to do well for Chapman.
00:20:30What do you mean you can't believe how you delivered them?
00:20:32Well, I mean, that I sang it with such conviction is what I mean.
00:20:36You know, in a way it's like, yeah, shooting at the wall, you know.
00:20:41I mean, it was a little bit, but I did it.
00:20:44I mean, you had to kind of, you got to be committed.
00:20:49What about Goodbye to You?
00:20:51That's two anthems.
00:20:52Oh, that's really an annoying one because, you know, I was so green.
00:20:56Like, I didn't know.
00:20:57And that may be the first song that I co-wrote.
00:21:00And, you know, I didn't know that.
00:21:02I didn't even know that.
00:21:03That that would be considered writing part of the song.
00:21:07Because we were in the studio.
00:21:09We had gone into someone from CBS, Paul Atkinson, who was an A&R guy.
00:21:14I think was getting us to do demos at CBS.
00:21:17For CBS, this was CBS, Columbia, Sony.
00:21:20Now Sony, right?
00:21:21So we were in the studio doing demos.
00:21:23And then we made a video.
00:21:25We made a video before the Goodbye to You video.
00:21:27We did a funky Line on You video.
00:21:29We got signed because of that.
00:21:30So we sent it into the label.
00:21:31They were, forget the demos.
00:21:33Let's just get them in the studio.
00:21:34But we didn't have a single.
00:21:35So we were putting out an EP.
00:21:37We were in the studio with Vinnie Poncia.
00:21:41And we didn't have enough songs.
00:21:42We were so new.
00:21:43You know, this band.
00:21:44We'd only been together like six months or something.
00:21:47That's why we put out an EP.
00:21:49But we didn't have a single.
00:21:50So I went up to his house.
00:21:51And we were going through tapes and stuff on the floor.
00:21:54And I heard the dint, dint, dint, dint.
00:21:56And he had some of the lyrics on the floor.
00:21:58But it wasn't a finished song.
00:22:00And what's funny is on the lyrics, there was someone else's name.
00:22:02Another girl's name with him on the song that they had started.
00:22:06But it wasn't done.
00:22:07So I go, look.
00:22:07This one.
00:22:08What is this?
00:22:09Like, let's work on this one.
00:22:12And so I think I wrote the bridge.
00:22:13I don't even know.
00:22:14But I mean, you know, I finished the song.
00:22:17But I didn't know that.
00:22:18So his name is on that song.
00:22:20Not my name.
00:22:21But he wasn't going to tell me that, of course.
00:22:23You know.
00:22:24I mean, a lot of people are like that.
00:22:27So that wound up being our hit single.
00:22:30Right?
00:22:32And what's funny is so many people came over to me.
00:22:34Like, guys who I had dated.
00:22:36Not so many, but a couple in the past were like, assuming that I was singing that song
00:22:41about them.
00:22:41Which is kind of funny.
00:22:42But no.
00:22:43So I mean, that's the story of that song.
00:22:46But it was so, I mean, you know, he wrote probably most of it.
00:22:50I probably wrote a quarter of it or a third of it.
00:22:52But it was a really good riff.
00:22:54And the goodbye to you part was really good.
00:22:57So yeah.
00:22:58To you.
00:22:59That's the story.
00:22:59You can edit most of that out.
00:23:01Oh, are you kidding?
00:23:04Oh, he called me one day because I said it in an interview before and he called me.
00:23:08Oh, he texted me or something.
00:23:10I go, dude, man.
00:23:11You show me.
00:23:11Show me the finished product before you met me.
00:23:14Just like, where is that song?
00:23:15Because it doesn't exist.
00:23:16Right, right, right.
00:23:18Yeah.
00:23:18And this is Zach.
00:23:19Mm-hmm.
00:23:20I wonder why you're not talking to him.
00:23:22Oh, I'll talk to him once in a while.
00:23:24There's not really any bad, but listen, it's turned out just fine for me.
00:23:28Yes.
00:23:28It's all right.
00:23:29But I still feel like I have to set the record straight once in a while.
00:23:32Yeah.
00:23:32Yeah.
00:23:33That's why you have to remember that it's music business.
00:23:37Yes.
00:23:38Mm-hmm.
00:23:38Yes.
00:23:38So many people say that.
00:23:40Yeah.
00:23:41Mm-hmm.
00:23:41It is.
00:23:42But did your mom tell you that?
00:23:43No.
00:23:44I don't think my mom knew about songwriting, you know?
00:23:46She knew about running clubs and booking, but she didn't, no.
00:23:50She didn't know that, no.
00:23:51That's interesting.
00:23:52I mean, she helped me as much as she could, yeah.
00:23:54But it's a very different thing being a promoter and a club owner than...
00:23:58She wasn't really in the recording industry, you know?
00:24:02Right.
00:24:02That's a whole other can of worms or other things, yeah.
00:24:07Yeah.
00:24:09Especially back then.
00:24:10You know what it was like to go on a promotional tour?
00:24:13We made the EP and me and Zach literally stayed in like, you know, the cockroaches were
00:24:19bringing our bags in.
00:24:20I mean, we were like down in Key West all over the South with this great A&R guy.
00:24:25And every radio station we went into was like, well, we added a girl already this week.
00:24:31We can't, we're not going to add your record.
00:24:33Because it would be like Benatar or Chrissy Hynde or Linda Ronstadt, whoever it was.
00:24:39Yeah.
00:24:39And it, I mean, I heard, I couldn't, I could not believe that because I grew up with a single
00:24:43mom who was the boss.
00:24:45You know, I'm like, so I didn't really understand sexism or misogyny or whatever.
00:24:51But it's shocking to think that that's what it was like.
00:24:54Wow.
00:24:54Because now it's so completely different.
00:24:56There's so many women artists, but yeah.
00:24:58I mean, rock and roll is also not really around as much anymore.
00:25:01But yeah, that was a big shock.
00:25:04But you did break through at that moment.
00:25:05Yeah.
00:25:05We broke through because of MTV though, because we made that video.
00:25:09I don't know if we would have, honestly, without that.
00:25:12I think we owe a lot to that, to that girl jumping around.
00:25:17And that, and our friend who was a fashion photographer who shot the video for us.
00:25:22Wow.
00:25:23Which was nice of him.
00:25:24Is there a scandal song that you feel never got it to do?
00:25:28I think Beat of a Heart.
00:25:30I think Beat of a Heart people really like, but when we put out The Warrior, the next record
00:25:35that was the obvious record that they were playing, remember AOR back in the day when it
00:25:40was album oriented, they were playing Beat of a Heart.
00:25:43That was the next obvious song that I feel like they should have let run.
00:25:48And instead they released Hands Tied.
00:25:50And I always felt like they, I love Hands Tied, but I think they released it too soon.
00:25:55And I think that song would have done better and Beat of a Heart would have been done better.
00:25:59But Mike Chapman wrote Hands Tied.
00:26:01And I think like they were anxious to get, cause he was, you know, he wrote pretty good songs,
00:26:05hit songs.
00:26:06So I think that was the only one.
00:26:07I mean, Beat of a Heart people really like and know, but I think it would have, that would
00:26:12have been the way that I would have done it.
00:26:14That's all.
00:26:15Okay.
00:26:16Then what came next?
00:26:17Was it Don Henley?
00:26:18I think I was, I sang on Don Henley's record when I was still, I think when I, I sang
00:26:25with,
00:26:25I sang on his record before I did The Warrior actually.
00:26:27He was calling me, cause it was before I had Ruby, before I had my daughter and my,
00:26:32I already had my daughter when The Warrior came out.
00:26:34Wait, did The Warrior come out in 84?
00:26:37No, I had her a year later.
00:26:38Whoops.
00:26:39Yeah.
00:26:40No, I was.
00:26:41Oh, I know.
00:26:41I was making my, my solo record when I had her.
00:26:44That was it.
00:26:45So in between the EP and The Warrior, Don Henley was calling my manager and trying to get me
00:26:53to come out.
00:26:54Him and Cooch trying to get me to sing on his record.
00:26:56And I kept saying no, because you know, I wasn't a very good background singer.
00:27:00And I was like terrified.
00:27:01Honestly, I'm like, I'm not going to go out there and like be bad.
00:27:04So I was like, no, I don't want to do it.
00:27:06And I didn't really know all the, I didn't know the guys in the Eagles, who they were.
00:27:10I wasn't that big of an Eagles fan back then, but I knew who he was because of Dirty Laundry,
00:27:16which I, you know, is such a great song.
00:27:18But I kept saying no.
00:27:19And then finally they said, we'll put her up in the Beverly Hills Hotel.
00:27:22And I was like, fine, I'll go.
00:27:25I mean, that's really, I made, I made so many dumb, dumb decisions like that, honestly.
00:27:32But I'm so happy that I did say yes.
00:27:33I'm so happy he offered because we've been friends a long time.
00:27:36And it's so, it felt so, it was so easy to sing with him.
00:27:40And I don't think that would, that's not the case with everyone that I could go in and sing on,
00:27:45because I wound up singing on four songs on that record.
00:27:47But we just, our voices just worked really well together.
00:27:50And that was, that was fun.
00:27:52And then, you know, the solo record comes out.
00:27:55Then I go to do Sometimes Love Just Ain't Enough.
00:27:57And I, he recorded it with me three times, three different times before we got it right, which is funny,
00:28:03which was nice of him, but he did like the song.
00:28:06Oh, that's so good. Massive hit.
00:28:08And I wouldn't call you background for sure.
00:28:11Definitely not.
00:28:11No, on mine, but on his records.
00:28:13Like I, I'm Building the Perfect Beast and Sunset Grill, you know, there were,
00:28:17that's what he wanted me to do, just come sing background.
00:28:19He didn't get to do, he did a little bit more than background on that, I'd say, yeah.
00:28:24How would you say your sound and songwriting's changed, like between Scandal and your solo work?
00:28:29Okay.
00:28:29I don't know. It's always hard to figure, see it, I don't think we see change as much in ourselves
00:28:35as other people do.
00:28:37But, I mean, my songwriting was a lot, was pretty, you know, usually had something to do with what was
00:28:43happening in my life.
00:28:45Sometimes Love, No Mistakes, I Should Be Laughing, things like that were very sort of autobiographical.
00:28:52And that's, and I mean, I guess when I was beginning to write in Scandal, that was true.
00:28:56There were some songs like that, like, She's a Girl Who Can't Say No was about a friend of mine
00:29:02who just was sleeping with everyone and just being treated so badly.
00:29:06And it was driving me crazy.
00:29:07And then, you know, another friend of mine, All I Want, he was, you know, just somebody who was struggling
00:29:12with substances and stuff.
00:29:14So I guess that was always in there.
00:29:16I think what's probably changed more, I think my voice is probably a little bit different, it has to be.
00:29:22But I think I was, my voice was more raspy, weirdly.
00:29:25I remember going down to record with Barry Beckett, who was like a legendary Memphis guy, a great organ player.
00:29:32And I did some tracks with him.
00:29:34I was, he was going to produce Sometimes Love and stuff like that.
00:29:39And I remember him saying that, like, I just, I think it got, I got raspier and then I got
00:29:43like less raspy.
00:29:45But I don't know how it's changed.
00:29:47I don't, I don't, I'm not really sure.
00:29:49Because I can still sort of do those things, but I don't know.
00:29:53How does it come to you when you are songwriting?
00:29:56Like, how do you, how do you do it?
00:29:59Here's the thing that happened.
00:30:00Like I, I went, the last batch of songs I wrote came out in 2020.
00:30:04I did that record.
00:30:05I was working on this track with this guy, Gerald O'Brien, really good.
00:30:09He's at a, he's, he used to live in Nashville.
00:30:11He's in LA now.
00:30:12And it was a really good track.
00:30:14And I was like, I don't know, let me, I'm going back to New York.
00:30:16I'm going to take the track with me.
00:30:17I'll figure it out.
00:30:18Like I, I kind of had a, it was, you know, he was playing it on piano, but we wound
00:30:23up,
00:30:23we recorded it with guitar and I couldn't think about, I just didn't know what the song,
00:30:28I didn't know what I wanted to write about.
00:30:29I had no idea, but I was estranged from my sister at the time.
00:30:33My sister and I was, were having, I only have one sister, you know, that I grew up with.
00:30:37I have two half sisters actually.
00:30:39And so we were kind of not really talking.
00:30:43Things were bad.
00:30:44She, and, and I, I was in my closet and I picked up a photograph that was turned over
00:30:50and I turned it over and it was my sister and I in a field across from our house in
00:30:55Queens
00:30:55when we were kids.
00:30:56And so I just, I found a picture of us when we were kids and that started it.
00:31:01And then I just wrote the song from there.
00:31:04But it turns out I, I put drive a lot in titles.
00:31:07Cause I went back, I found some unreleased tracks and one song is called Drive You Away.
00:31:12When, so drive is a big thing in there.
00:31:14I, I didn't drive till I was 32 by the way.
00:31:16So maybe that's why.
00:31:18Really?
00:31:18Yeah.
00:31:19Yeah.
00:31:19I'm a New Yorker.
00:31:20Oh, you're a New Yorker.
00:31:20Right.
00:31:21That's so funny.
00:31:23I learned how to drive in Topanga Canyon.
00:31:25You know, I mean like I lived like way up in the canyons in LA and that's how I learned
00:31:28how to drive.
00:31:29Who taught you how to drive?
00:31:31My, probably my sister taught me and my friend Linda taught me to drive.
00:31:35They just let me drive.
00:31:37Oh, anyone who could drive.
00:31:40Anyone who I had, who was a friend of mine who could drive probably taught me how to drive.
00:31:43Let me drive a little bit.
00:31:44It's so funny.
00:31:45Mm-hmm.
00:31:46Aw.
00:31:47I failed a couple of times.
00:31:50Is it true that Eddie Van Halen asked you to take over for David Lee Roth when he left
00:31:55the band?
00:31:55Yes, that is correct.
00:31:57I know.
00:31:59Again, very, I was very, you know, we were friends because Valerie was a fan and they
00:32:03came and toured with us, Valerie and Ed.
00:32:06You know, he was starting to talk to me about that a little bit then.
00:32:08And then when I was like eight months pregnant, she was on Letterman and he was sitting in
00:32:13with the band.
00:32:14So I went up and watched the show because it was in New York and we all went out to
00:32:18dinner.
00:32:19Paul Schaefer was there.
00:32:20I forgot to ask Paul if he remembers.
00:32:21Paul was there.
00:32:22Korchmar were there.
00:32:23Danny Korchmar, who used to work with Henley.
00:32:26And he said, I got to know.
00:32:28You got to let me know now.
00:32:29And I just was like, no, I can't do it.
00:32:31I mean, which is, again, that's what I'm saying about those decisions I made without really
00:32:35thinking it through.
00:32:36But I was like, I'm really pregnant.
00:32:38I don't want to move to L.A.
00:32:40Meanwhile, I've had a home in L.A. now for 35 years.
00:32:42But, you know, at that point I could not see myself.
00:32:46And him and Alex, you know, they were, had a pretty, you know, they had a good, they were
00:32:51very close, but they were, you know, they followed it like siblings do.
00:32:54And so I think if he had said to me, let's make a record, then that would have been different.
00:33:00But I don't know.
00:33:01I just, it didn't, I mean, it's terrible to say this, but I loved him.
00:33:06I don't know if I loved, you know, the band, the music that much.
00:33:10It wasn't necessarily, so, yeah, so, but I think it was timing.
00:33:15Timing's everything.
00:33:16Yes.
00:33:17And it wasn't really, like, where I was going right then and there.
00:33:20Right.
00:33:21And I was working on my own record and writing my own, so.
00:33:24But in retrospect, I really wish that we had made a record together.
00:33:27That would have been great.
00:33:28And I loved him.
00:33:28He was really a wonderful guy.
00:33:30He loved Maybe We Went Too Far.
00:33:32That was the song that was on, that was the last song on the Warrior record.
00:33:35And he loved that.
00:33:37Yeah.
00:33:38But, you know, he would have tried to make me sing because he made Sammy Hagar sing so
00:33:44high on those records.
00:33:45He loved that.
00:33:46And he was always trying.
00:33:47And I was like, wow.
00:33:47Okay.
00:33:48Yeah.
00:33:48I'm sure he would have tried to get me to sing really high.
00:33:50But after I said no, he found Sammy Hagar and he said to me at one point, we talked
00:33:55and he's like, yeah, because I was out there recording a record and he was like, I don't want
00:34:01Sammy look like second choice.
00:34:02I'm like, okay.
00:34:03So I never talked about it.
00:34:05And then somehow it got out.
00:34:06And then, you know, I think Howard Stern asked me, you know, then it, a lot of people
00:34:11still don't know it.
00:34:11But so it's not like I go, Hey, I was asked to, but if somebody asked me, I tell them,
00:34:17but it's funny.
00:34:17I was like, okay, I understand.
00:34:20Could you imagine how cool that would have been?
00:34:21It would have been cool for at least a record.
00:34:24It would have been cool.
00:34:24Yeah.
00:34:25Well, for us, I guess.
00:34:26I never could understand Sammy Hagar back then.
00:34:29Like now I get it.
00:34:30But then I was like.
00:34:31Well, he was very, very different then.
00:34:33But you know, they, but they did make a couple of good records.
00:34:35I mean, the songs are, there were a couple of really good songs.
00:34:38Yeah.
00:34:39And he sang really high.
00:34:40That's for damn sure.
00:34:42Yeah.
00:34:42It's so funny.
00:34:42Cause your voice is so deep.
00:34:44How would he make you sound high?
00:34:46How can one do that?
00:34:46Well, I can sing high, but I mean, he just would keep pushing.
00:34:49I think, you know, it's like Henley sang really high on his records too.
00:34:55Yeah.
00:34:55Yeah.
00:34:56I'm not always at the brink.
00:34:57I don't like being at the brink.
00:34:59I like to be at the brink for a second, but if you're at the brink,
00:35:02it's gets to be grating a little bit.
00:35:04I feel like it also really hurts your, your chords.
00:35:07I think you got to get in and you got to get out.
00:35:10All right.
00:35:10John McEnroe.
00:35:12You're married to John McEnroe.
00:35:14I always thought that was, oh, see, I scooped it.
00:35:18I, that was another thing.
00:35:20I always thought that was a funny pairing.
00:35:22Could never get it.
00:35:23I was like scared of him in a good sort of way, you know?
00:35:27And then I got.
00:35:27Did you think it was a funny pairing us together?
00:35:30Because he was so scary.
00:35:31I was scared of him.
00:35:32Cause he always yelled.
00:35:33And I.
00:35:33He's kind of scary.
00:35:34He can be scary.
00:35:36Then I started to get it.
00:35:37And now I really get it.
00:35:38Cause he's a musician.
00:35:39And I saw him play recently.
00:35:42Uh, the love rock show.
00:35:43Yeah.
00:35:43I didn't know he was that good.
00:35:45Yeah.
00:35:45He's pretty good.
00:35:46But I mean, I, you know, what's funny about that is like,
00:35:49I, I met him in LA at like a friend's Christmas party.
00:35:53Um, we didn't get together for another, I guess another like nine months.
00:35:58But I met him at this Christmas party and then he, but, but what's funny about that is we grew
00:36:02up like 20 minutes from each other in Queens.
00:36:04I mean, you know, you go around the world.
00:36:06He certainly did many times.
00:36:08And you marry a guy from Queens, you know, or a girl from Queens.
00:36:11And I have a way worse temper than him.
00:36:14And he's like the one that's like calming me down.
00:36:16He tells everybody like, I'm the one like, don't, you know, don't with me, with my kids, with my husband.
00:36:22Cause I am from Brooklyn.
00:36:23He's from Queens.
00:36:24I lived in Queens for a little while, but I also spent a few years in Brooklyn.
00:36:27So it, that ratchets it up, ratchets up the rage.
00:36:31God, I don't know what he would have been like if he spent any time in Brooklyn.
00:36:34That would have made him a really a terror on the court.
00:36:37So, I mean, we're very much alike weirdly, but he can be scary.
00:36:41I don't have that scary thing of like, he does that silent thing or the really loud thing.
00:36:46I always tell the story.
00:36:47My kids love the story about when I went first time with him to the French Open.
00:36:51I never, I guess we must've been flying back and forth.
00:36:54Cause I was in LA then.
00:36:55And he was here when we were first going out.
00:36:57This is the first six months we were going out.
00:37:00And I got on a plane with him to Paris and he didn't say one word to me on that
00:37:04flight.
00:37:05That's how he traveled.
00:37:06He just didn't talk on the plane, I guess.
00:37:08So he read whatever.
00:37:09And I was sitting there by the time we landed in Paris, I was so upset and so mad.
00:37:15I'm like, you didn't even talk.
00:37:16And then like, I realized that was just him that he just didn't talk on the plane.
00:37:21But, you know, he's that way in the car too.
00:37:23He wants to listen to the radio.
00:37:25None of my kids want to drive with him.
00:37:26They all want to drive with me.
00:37:28Why does he drive?
00:37:29Oh, cause he doesn't talk.
00:37:30He doesn't want to talk.
00:37:32He's a weird, weird, he's a weird traveler.
00:37:34The guys traveled.
00:37:35Yeah.
00:37:35I call him the lone wolf.
00:37:36The guys traveled, you know, most of his life since he's a kid, you know, literally a
00:37:40teenager.
00:37:41So he has his, you know, thing.
00:37:43He's idiosyncratic.
00:37:45But that, I mean, they broke the mold with him.
00:37:48He's, I count myself really, really lucky.
00:37:50We've been together 32 years this month.
00:37:53That's crazy.
00:37:54Wow, that's rare.
00:37:54And I don't even know how that happened.
00:37:56I never saw that in my future.
00:37:58Never.
00:37:58I had already given up when I met him.
00:38:00But he was the one that knew.
00:38:03He knew.
00:38:04And I was like, no, no, that's not real.
00:38:06There is no such thing as love or people are miserable in their marriage.
00:38:11I saw no signs of, like, love and marriage being a good thing.
00:38:16So, you know, not when I was growing up and not as I was out there on the, you know,
00:38:21dating
00:38:22scene or whatever.
00:38:22But somehow he knew.
00:38:24So I'm eternally grateful for that, that he knew.
00:38:28When did it click for you inside?
00:38:29I just sort of, I think the part of it that clicked for me was that he, like, even though
00:38:34it
00:38:35was exciting, it was very familiar.
00:38:37Like, I really felt like I knew him.
00:38:38I felt very comfortable with him.
00:38:41He was like, again, somebody I grew up with.
00:38:43I don't really know what the alchemy was.
00:38:45But it was familiar and exciting.
00:38:48And he was a good, I could tell that he was good and kind.
00:38:51And he is good and kind.
00:38:52And he's got a lot of integrity.
00:38:54He probably has more integrity than anyone that I know, honestly.
00:38:57Like, he does the right thing.
00:38:58He always tries to do the right thing.
00:39:01So I think I just sort of trusted him.
00:39:05I knew I wasn't going to get hurt, like, in any way.
00:39:08I'm not just, you know, like, I knew somehow that I could sort of, I just went, I just really
00:39:13just went along with it.
00:39:14And then I got caught up.
00:39:16I was like, okay, I'll believe that, you know, this is possible.
00:39:20Sometimes you have to act as if, you know, they say.
00:39:23So that's kind of what I did.
00:39:25And then I caught up.
00:39:27That's so cool.
00:39:28I love it.
00:39:29Yeah.
00:39:30That's crazy, though.
00:39:31I don't know how that happened.
00:39:32It is.
00:39:32I have no advice for anyone.
00:39:34I don't know.
00:39:35Well, that's on here.
00:39:36What's your advice?
00:39:37Mm-hmm.
00:39:37Oh, it just works.
00:39:39Have you guys, well, you've played together for sure.
00:39:41And you're going to be, right, at Carlisle?
00:39:43Yeah, he'll come and play with me.
00:39:44Yeah.
00:39:44I mean, you know, it's funny.
00:39:45He's like, hell froze over.
00:39:47But, you know, because he really wants to be in a band with me.
00:39:51And I'm like, I don't know about that.
00:39:52But, like, I just did something out in East Hampton.
00:39:56We did something in the summer.
00:39:57And he came out and did three or four songs.
00:39:59And it's fun because he is good.
00:40:01And he loves music.
00:40:03And he loves rock and roll.
00:40:04And he's so enthusiastic.
00:40:06So it's fun.
00:40:06Like, I wrote a song called Wish I Were You when I first met him.
00:40:09I wrote a song about him.
00:40:10I'm going to do that at the Carlisle.
00:40:12You know, because he just was so into music.
00:40:14And I was so over the music business at that point.
00:40:17I was like, don't play music.
00:40:20Don't talk to me about music.
00:40:21You know, like, wherever I was, I just was like, I'm taking a break here.
00:40:25And I literally wrote the song about, like, how he just, you know, he used to tell me that he
00:40:31didn't remember his dreams.
00:40:32And then I guess one day he must have said to me, I think I had a dream and I
00:40:35think it was in color.
00:40:37You know, I don't ever remember if my dreams were in color or not.
00:40:39But that became the line of the song, like, he dreams in color.
00:40:43But, which is funny because then Eddie Vedder had a song.
00:40:47That came, he wrote that after.
00:40:48But it just was a coincidence that we had the same line.
00:40:52But he just loves it.
00:40:53And that's, that's something that's, you know, rubbed off on me a little bit, I guess.
00:40:57I came around.
00:40:58So now I like for him to, you know, to play a little bit with me.
00:41:03He's wrestled that guitar into submission.
00:41:06That's kind of, he just, his will has wrestled that.
00:41:09And he can play it now.
00:41:10But through COVID, all he did was play.
00:41:13And he got a lot better.
00:41:15It was his time that I had a problem with.
00:41:18Like, his time was not so good, but it's way better now.
00:41:22He's got a good ear.
00:41:23Yeah.
00:41:24And he loves music.
00:41:25So, I mean, and he's, he's actually good at picking out good songs.
00:41:29Which is a gift, I'd say.
00:41:32I love that.
00:41:32Yeah.
00:41:33So we kind of have that in common.
00:41:35We both like art, you know, and we go look at art and collect art.
00:41:39And yeah.
00:41:40Yeah.
00:41:40I was going to say, what do you two do?
00:41:41What do two legends do when you're not working?
00:41:44We're not, it's, it's funny what's happened since COVID.
00:41:47Like I go upstairs and I watch murder and he's watching sports.
00:41:50And then I come downstairs and every TV that could possibly be on is on a different sport.
00:41:55And that's kind of what he does.
00:41:57Like after the open, you know, he'd have to come home and unwind.
00:42:00And so he went, did he go alone?
00:42:03He drives himself there and back.
00:42:05He doesn't like, if that's what you mean, he goes alone.
00:42:07And I went a couple of times.
00:42:08I don't, I don't go too much.
00:42:09I like to watch it on TV, but I like to go.
00:42:12I mean, it's fine.
00:42:14So he comes home and watches more sports or, you know, Jimmy Kimmel or something.
00:42:20Yeah.
00:42:20Depending on how late it went.
00:42:22One of those matches went to like three 30 in the morning.
00:42:24It's crazy.
00:42:26Yeah.
00:42:26I don't know, but I want that hat out there.
00:42:29The Wimbledon.
00:42:30I go to, yeah, I should be.
00:42:31I know a lot about tennis, not on purpose, but I've just picked it up.
00:42:36It took me a year.
00:42:37I just want to say if anyone can not keep score in tennis, it took me a year.
00:42:41And I just pretended that I know what the score is.
00:42:44No idea what was happening.
00:42:46Because it was love and then it's 15 and then it's deuce and then it's an advent.
00:42:49It's like, it's complicated.
00:42:51Yeah.
00:42:51At first, but.
00:42:53Pickleball is complicated.
00:42:54Oh yeah.
00:42:54I don't even.
00:42:55Yeah.
00:42:56He really doesn't like pickleball.
00:42:57I played it a couple of times, but do you play it?
00:43:01No.
00:43:01I tried it once and I was like, this is too hard.
00:43:04I'll just give me a regular tennis.
00:43:05All right.
00:43:05Good.
00:43:06So do you play tennis now?
00:43:08You know, I was playing tennis and I guess like 20 years ago, probably, maybe more.
00:43:14I told you I got hit by a car.
00:43:17That was a long, long time ago.
00:43:20And then I tore my meniscus playing tennis and so I just stopped playing.
00:43:25It wasn't worth it.
00:43:25Like I could do every other sport but tennis because it's this lateral move.
00:43:30And so that's not good when you don't have an ACL.
00:43:32So I don't play tennis.
00:43:34I like it.
00:43:35And I was pretty good at it.
00:43:37Did you play with him?
00:43:51He told me, dude, I know you can hit the ball.
00:43:53But he was trying to help me get the weight, whatever, you know, his exercise.
00:43:58I would get so mad.
00:44:00I'd throw the racket at him, not even on the ground.
00:44:03And all the kids, he would do that.
00:44:05You know, like he can't help it.
00:44:07So when I tore my meniscus on my friend's tennis court, we were playing doubles.
00:44:11He's like, you know, you don't have to run every ball down.
00:44:14But meanwhile, he made me run every ball down.
00:44:16So there you go.
00:44:18I don't play a lot of tennis.
00:44:20You should be tougher with him on the guitar then.
00:44:22Yeah.
00:44:22Oh, I've been tough on him.
00:44:24Yeah.
00:44:25I've been, I definitely have been tough on him.
00:44:27So I give him some props now trying.
00:44:30I love it.
00:44:31You know, just because you're good at something, by the way, doesn't mean you're a good teacher.
00:44:34You know, that's the other thing.
00:44:36Like maybe that's why, like, because there's so many great teachers.
00:44:39Maybe they weren't great players or the best, but they're so gifted at teaching.
00:44:44You know, it's, they don't always go hand in hand.
00:44:46Yeah.
00:44:47That's true.
00:44:48Yeah, for sure.
00:44:50Okay.
00:44:50Advice.
00:44:51You already said you're not going to answer that one next.
00:44:54Oh, you have to keep having sex.
00:44:56That's John's advice.
00:44:57Oh, of course.
00:44:58It's a man's advice.
00:44:59That's right.
00:45:00But I mean, I think it's true.
00:45:01I think you have to stay connected.
00:45:03And people stopped being connected in their thirties for crying out loud.
00:45:07So I think that's something you have to try to, you really have to keep it going.
00:45:11And sometimes it's harder than other times, I guess.
00:45:15Yeah.
00:45:15But I think that's, that's the only, that's, that would be our advice.
00:45:20How's that?
00:45:22Not good.
00:45:22My husband's in the room.
00:45:25Uh oh.
00:45:26Sorry.
00:45:26But it is.
00:45:27I know because it's, you know, it's unfair.
00:45:29I'm going to say for women, it's unfair because our hormones just leave us.
00:45:34I mean, they're just gone.
00:45:36And like men, maybe some of the, maybe their testosterone goes down a little bit, but you
00:45:40know, so it's a, it's definitely challenging.
00:45:42Yeah.
00:45:43But I mean, I think it's something that's not a bad thing.
00:45:46What would your current self tell you younger?
00:45:49Oh man.
00:45:50So many things, but I would probably, I mean, I feel like I was weirdly cocky in some ways
00:45:58and then sort of like not as confident in other ways.
00:46:03In the beginning, like in the, I let the record company people sort of like be too in too much
00:46:09in the decision making because I felt like they knew what they were doing.
00:46:13You know, like I was sort of new to the business and, but I think the, the, you have to
00:46:19really
00:46:19listen to yourself, I think, and not make decisions based on dumb ego or pride, or I would say that
00:46:27was one thing.
00:46:27And I would say another thing is to keep any of your opinions about people to yourself and
00:46:33not, you know, cause I, I felt like compelled to let people know if I thought they were an
00:46:38asshole.
00:46:39And that's not necessarily good for, you know, just for life in general.
00:46:45It's like, you can keep that to yourself.
00:46:46If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say it.
00:46:49That's one thing that falls under that.
00:46:51Like sometimes I feel like I would have to step in and do things and say something when
00:46:57maybe it wasn't my place to do it.
00:46:59And maybe I was right, but it didn't, doesn't matter.
00:47:01So that's part of it, I think.
00:47:02And also to remember that it was a business.
00:47:04I was just so happy to be making records.
00:47:07And like, I went in the first year with Zach and my management and I signed a publishing
00:47:14deal.
00:47:15I didn't need to sign a publishing deal.
00:47:16I didn't need the money.
00:47:17I had $180 a month apartment.
00:47:19I was flush.
00:47:21Like I was, you know, I wasn't like, I was okay, but they needed the money because they
00:47:26were all living in fancy apartments on the Upper East Side.
00:47:29So I kind of went in and I wasn't really writing songs yet.
00:47:32So I didn't really even know what that was.
00:47:34You know what I mean?
00:47:35And my lawyer should have tipped me off on that, but that I didn't know about.
00:47:40I think it's different now.
00:47:42I don't think I even have to give that advice.
00:47:43I think there's been so many books written about the business of music.
00:47:47So I would say that that would be one thing.
00:47:50Like I, I really should have thought of it as, you know, I just was sort of like winging
00:47:53it.
00:47:54I just, you know, I never really had a long term plan.
00:47:57I wasn't super ambitious and maybe that's okay.
00:48:01You know, because I've had a pretty great life, but I mean, I think it was also sort
00:48:06of like, wow, this is really my job, you know, something like that, even though it wasn't
00:48:11a reach because everyone around me was a musician, you know, like everyone in my mom's world was
00:48:17a musician, but everybody back in like school and around my Brooklyn neighborhood were not.
00:48:22So.
00:48:23Right.
00:48:24And I also, I don't know.
00:48:26I mean, I guess that's enough advice to tell my younger self.
00:48:30Think about stuff.
00:48:32Make, you have to make decisions for the right reasons.
00:48:34Like, not cavalierly.
00:48:36Like, no, I don't think I'll join Van Halen right now.
00:48:39Maybe next year.
00:48:41You don't regret you did that.
00:48:42I don't, I don't regret.
00:48:44I mean, I think I regretted it for a minute.
00:48:46I think I was like, like, you know, like what my solar record kind of did that.
00:48:52And then, you know, so, I mean, there's always a moment where you're like, should I have done
00:48:55that?
00:48:56And people were so disappointed when I, that I didn't, you know, a lot of people really
00:49:00thought that would be a good idea.
00:49:02So, but not anymore.
00:49:04No, I think Sammy did a good job and it, it, it all worked out fine because who knows
00:49:08how that would have changed the trajectory of my life.
00:49:11You know, I might not have met John.
00:49:12I might not have had my next two kids.
00:49:15It's like my life is, you know, sometimes you also have to trust in the process.
00:49:19So, but it is hard to know when, as my sister says, you always think you should zig instead
00:49:23of zag and, and you just don't know sometimes.
00:49:27But, you know, and now I'm at this point in my life, like, you know, I still want to be
00:49:30singing.
00:49:31I still want to do that.
00:49:32But, you know, like how much do I want to do it?
00:49:35Like, you know, like how do I want to do it?
00:49:37So, and that's okay too.
00:49:40Yeah.
00:49:40That's, that's great.
00:49:41Yeah.
00:49:42I guess I, I, I've been very lucky.
00:49:44I've been very lucky.
00:49:45But I really want to get back to loving how much I loved to sing.
00:49:50I used to love the sound of my own voice.
00:49:52It's funny.
00:49:53Like I, I couldn't get enough of, of like playing with it.
00:49:56And I feel like I don't have that anymore.
00:49:58Like, you know, that's, maybe that's something that happens really in the beginning and in
00:50:02the early years, you know, you kind of, then you get used to it or something.
00:50:06But I, I kind of like to try to get that back.
00:50:09Just that like, you know, and really annoy people around me by singing constantly.
00:50:14Like I did literally, even my daughter Ruby, when she was two was like, no sing mommy.
00:50:18I mean, because I would be singing all the time.
00:50:21So I like to be doing that again.
00:50:24How do you get it back?
00:50:24How do you get it back?
00:50:25I don't know.
00:50:26I think I got to go back into the back stairwells of buildings again.
00:50:29You know, like where all the acoustics sound good and, and do that.
00:50:32It comes back.
00:50:34But I mean, I think it's like anything else.
00:50:36You have to keep doing it.
00:50:37Yes.
00:50:38Well, you're doing it.
00:50:39Yeah, I'm doing it.
00:50:40What about new music?
00:50:41Is there anything coming?
00:50:43I haven't, I really haven't been writing that much.
00:50:46I mean, I have some, but that's another thing that I, I, I met these two women in LA
00:50:52who are really good musicians and really good singers.
00:50:55And so I think I'm going to go when I, when I'm done with these gigs, I'm going to go
00:50:59in
00:50:59and try and do some recording with them.
00:51:01So something more vocally interesting for me, because I always feel like I did all the heavy lifting
00:51:08vocally and not really a lot of background singers.
00:51:11And I kind of want that now.
00:51:13So, because it, it just adds so much.
00:51:16So I think that's what I'm going to, that's where I'm going.
00:51:18So I have to, I'll be writing probably with them and got to start doing it.
00:51:23You know, the inspiration comes, but it comes when it comes for me.
00:51:27Yes.
00:51:27Well, the Carlisle and the Pat Benatar shows come, those, those will be cool.
00:51:32And I mean, Carlisle, I remember staying there.
00:51:34We stayed there once for a week.
00:51:35I couldn't even get in.
00:51:36I couldn't get into the thing.
00:51:38It's so, I know because it's so, it's just, it's just small.
00:51:42It's like 88 seats.
00:51:43Yeah.
00:51:44So that's crazy.
00:51:45I think there are still tickets, but yeah, but I mean, it's, it's, it's wild.
00:51:50It's hard to get in there.
00:51:51I think you could call up anybody and I'd want to do stuff with you.
00:51:55So I think there's a lot for you.
00:51:57So I think, is there any collabs you'd want to do that?
00:52:00Well, you just told us your friends.
00:52:03No, I mean, I mean, collabs in the future.
00:52:06God, I don't know.
00:52:07So many people that I wanted to collab with, you know, I realized that like a lot of them
00:52:11are going, you know, so I like to figure out somebody young maybe that I'd like to sing
00:52:16with.
00:52:17And there's a couple of really good young singers coming.
00:52:19There's a couple of good Brits coming up.
00:52:21So yeah, maybe I have to give that some thought.
00:52:24That would be fun.
00:52:25I'd like to do something really like completely insanely, like you'd never think of it.
00:52:32That'd be fun.
00:52:32Like totally opposite me, but I don't know who that is.
00:52:36Yeah.
00:52:37I don't know.
00:52:38Cause you're so kind of eclectic.
00:52:40Yeah.
00:52:40I wonder who would be totally opposite of you.
00:52:43I don't know.
00:52:44I've been thinking about that though.
00:52:45I always wanted to like work with a hip hop artist or a rap.
00:52:49Do you, do you like, like remember Tammy Wynette did this crazy vocal.
00:52:53It was like the nineties though.
00:52:56Uh, I can't remember what the name of the band was, but it was, I'm not going to remember
00:53:00the song, but it was like, Juju land, Juju land.
00:53:06It was something like that.
00:53:07And she did this whole, it was made up words, but it was great cause they did this whole rap
00:53:13thing and thing.
00:53:14And then she'd come in with her chorus.
00:53:16Oh wow.
00:53:16Kind of rappy.
00:53:17Wasn't total rap.
00:53:18Yeah.
00:53:19I thought that was great, but you know how pet shop boys did it with a, oh my God, I'm
00:53:24sorry.
00:53:24This is what I'm having a senior moment right now.
00:53:27Oh, please.
00:53:27Dusty Springfield.
00:53:28Got it.
00:53:29Just, it's not totally senior.
00:53:31Just, it's just a moment late.
00:53:32Lots of moments.
00:53:33It's just a moment late.
00:53:34Yeah.
00:53:34It's the hormones.
00:53:35Right.
00:53:36It is the God damn hormones.
00:53:38I think you should do something with John.
00:53:40I think you should.
00:53:42Yeah.
00:53:42I think that would sell.
00:53:43He's good.
00:53:44He's a good guitar player.
00:53:45Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:53:46Are you singing?
00:53:48She was like, yeah, she doesn't want something you want to do.
00:53:51You haven't done.
00:53:52I like to keep writing.
00:53:53You know, I worked on a bunch of short stories and I've written a bunch of stories.
00:53:57So I'd like to, I need to get more discipline and I'd like to sit down and just keep writing.
00:54:02I had an idea for a TV show, so I'm throwing stuff around just because it's funny and might
00:54:08be a good idea.
00:54:09Who the heck knows?
00:54:11So that would be fun to try to do something like that.
00:54:13That's so cool.
00:54:14I also thought about doing a podcast with my sister because she's really funny and when
00:54:19we start going, it's, I mean, you have to bleep every word that we say, but something
00:54:25like that.
00:54:26Maybe.
00:54:26Cool.
00:54:27Yakin.
00:54:28What's your favorite comfort food?
00:54:29Right now it's fried chicken.
00:54:31I mean, if I could, I would eat a fried chicken sandwich every day with coleslaw on it and
00:54:36a pickle, but I'd say that's up there.
00:54:39I like shepherd's pie too.
00:54:41That's a good one.
00:54:41What's yours?
00:54:42That's a good comfort food.
00:54:44French fries.
00:54:45Oh, I eat French fries all the time.
00:54:46I guess that must be it.
00:54:47I do eat a lot of chips.
00:54:49Yes.
00:54:50Chips and fries.
00:54:52Favorite cocktail?
00:54:53I don't drink.
00:54:54Oh, you don't drink.
00:54:54Good for you.
00:54:56I said I was going to stop too, but I don't know.
00:54:59I had a beer last night.
00:55:00I don't know.
00:55:01You don't have to stop.
00:55:02I'm trying to think about what was my favorite cocktail.
00:55:06I don't know.
00:55:07It's good.
00:55:07Drinking is bad.
00:55:08I like smoking.
00:55:09Yeah.
00:55:09I like wine.
00:55:10If I was going to pick one, it would probably be a good wine.
00:55:14Not a cocktail.
00:55:15Is there anything you want to say that we didn't cover?
00:55:17No.
00:55:18I mean, I have a grandchild, but I don't need to say that.
00:55:20I mean, I do have a 10-month-old grandbaby.
00:55:23She was born a month after I lost my mom, which was like-
00:55:25That's so beautiful.
00:55:26Thank God for that.
00:55:27Oh, my gosh.
00:55:28I think it really sort of helped me.
00:55:30Oh, yes.
00:55:30I think I'm coming around, though, from that.
00:55:32But she lives in California, so I've been there so much.
00:55:37Well, you can go back.
00:55:38Yeah.
00:55:38But she's the funniest baby I have ever met.
00:55:41I mean, she's just so happy all the time.
00:55:43That's so great.
00:55:44I've got to show you a picture of her, but she's hilarious.
00:55:47So she makes me laugh out loud.
00:55:49Like, I'm like-
00:55:50Because she's like this close to my-
00:55:52Because she hasn't seen me for a couple weeks, so when she sees me again,
00:55:55she's right here with these big blue eyes, like studying my face, and I just laugh.
00:56:00It makes me happy.
00:56:02I had no idea.
00:56:03It's like crack, this baby.
00:56:05I mean, I've never done crack, but when I hear, this baby's like crack.
00:56:09I just want to-
00:56:11It's crazy.
00:56:12It's amazing.
00:56:13Yeah, what a time.
00:56:14Perfect timing.
00:56:15Aw.
00:56:15That was good timing, yeah.
00:56:16It's beautiful.
00:56:17I know.
00:56:17I'm putting my glasses on.
00:56:19Oh, there you are.
00:56:20I know.
00:56:20I can see me now.
00:56:21You were in very soft focus for a while.
00:56:24No, I never wear glasses on, but I guess I-
00:56:27Wow, Connie, it's so good.
00:56:27We've got to go to that, get to that show.
00:56:29Yeah.
00:56:30There are tickets available for that show.
00:56:31We'll get there if there are tickets available.
00:56:32Oh, it's after the Pat Minotaur one.
00:56:34I have to put a whole other band together in the West, so I'm not going to fly everybody,
00:56:38you know, so like I'm putting a band together for that show, for one show.
00:56:41Oh, so it'll be a different type show then.
00:56:43Yeah.
00:56:43I mean, I'm happy to do it.
00:56:44It's just a bit of a pain because it's three weeks before I've got to come back and then
00:56:49I'm rehearsing with different guys.
00:56:51But Keith Mack is my guitar player and like my baby brother.
00:56:55So he's going to do both shows with me, so he'll come.
00:56:58Oh, cool.
00:56:58He's like my security blanket.
00:56:59Oh, yeah, it's nice.
00:57:01Because I know him so long.
00:57:02I can beat up on him, yell at him, scream at him.
00:57:04And he knows what keys I sing everything in because I don't know anything.
00:57:08Like, what key do you- I go, listen to the record.
00:57:11I don't know what key it is.
00:57:14But anyway, so it's going to be fun.
00:57:16It'll be good to see Pat again.
00:57:18You know, the sad part, I guess the other thing I would say about that, I guess I better
00:57:23take my glasses off, is that, you know, we were not really like, I feel like there's
00:57:29a lot more camaraderie among women now and women artists.
00:57:32And back in the day, you know, you were like stacked against each other.
00:57:37It was kind of like actresses in Hollywood or whatever, because you were literally competing
00:57:41for the same one slot a week.
00:57:44That doesn't really, you know, breed camaraderie.
00:57:47It breeds competition and sort of- so that was kind of like we were all kind of in our
00:57:53own lanes and we weren't really intersecting.
00:57:55And I feel bad about that because it would have been nice to have been collaborating or
00:58:00doing stuff together or, you know, just kind of helping each other as opposed to feeling
00:58:05like, oh, they might be in my way.
00:58:07Yeah.
00:58:08Because that was kind of, I mean, I think the guys liked it that way too.
00:58:12I think guys do like it that way.
00:58:14But, so, and back in the day it was kind of like that more.
00:58:18I regret that.
00:58:19That would have been nice to have changed.
00:58:21Well, it came around.
00:58:23Yeah, it did.
00:58:24Yeah, which is good.
00:58:25How did it come around?
00:58:27Like how did you-
00:58:28I don't, it didn't come around for me.
00:58:30I mean, you know, I've always had-
00:58:32Yes.
00:58:33Girlfriends and stuff, but I don't know how it turned out.
00:58:35I just think it just, I think rock and roll just started slipping out and rock and roll
00:58:40was sexist.
00:58:41Let's face it.
00:58:42It was, you know, hate to say it, even though I love it.
00:58:45It was not that women friendly.
00:58:48If you think about it, there's a handful of rock chicks, right?
00:58:51Yes.
00:58:52Not that many, even back to the sixties.
00:58:54And I think as it got more into pop and I don't know, it just seemed like all of a
00:59:00sudden
00:59:00there were so many more singers.
00:59:01So female singers.
00:59:03So I'm not really sure why it changed.
00:59:06I'm not sure like society changed that much, but music did maybe.
00:59:10Yeah.
00:59:11Maybe because in R&B it was always women and men.
00:59:14I don't feel like R&B was that male dominant.
00:59:17I mean, it was more men just because I guess going on the road and stuff like that.
00:59:22But I think that, yeah, I think rock and roll was a little bit more misogynistic.
00:59:27But how did you get together like with Pat again, for example?
00:59:30That was just something where I think they just had somebody drop out of their tour like
00:59:34a few months ago and they asked me if I would do it.
00:59:36So I said, I said I would.
00:59:38Yeah.
00:59:38I mean, they live in Malibu, I think.
00:59:40I never see her out there.
00:59:41We have a home out there, but I never see them.
00:59:43I don't, I don't want into her a lot.
00:59:45So it'll be good to see them.
00:59:47How's that?
00:59:48That was so good.
00:59:49You're so good.
00:59:50Am I?
00:59:51I'm glad.
00:59:52I hope I wasn't.
00:59:52You're such a great interview.
00:59:53Oh, am I?
00:59:54Good.
00:59:54I have goosebumps the whole time.
00:59:56I was coming up going, I don't know.
00:59:58Oh my God.
00:59:58Are we going to talk about, like what do we talk about?
01:00:01Like everything.
01:00:02All right, good.
01:00:04All right.
01:00:04Good.
01:00:05It's been 30 minutes ago.
01:00:05I've been 30 minutes ago.
01:00:05I've been 31 past 5 minutes.
01:00:05I've seen 31, 30 minutes ago.
01:00:05I've been a long time when there was almost no reason.