- 5 weeks ago
Filmmaker Kevin Smith sits down with WhatCulture to discuss the long-awaited return of his cult classic film, 'Dogma.' Smith talks about the 25th-anniversary theatrical re-release, the film's legacy, and what it's like sharing it with a new generation of fans.
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00:00Hello and welcome to What Coach You? With myself, Andrew Pollard. I hope you're good, I hope you're well, I
00:03hope your week is going as well as possible.
00:05My week is going fantastically. As you can see, I'm joined by a very, very special guest today.
00:10The one, the only, the man who helped popularize the number 37 and introduced us to his viewers universe and
00:16beyond, Kevin Smith.
00:17Kevin, how are you?
00:19It's so good. How's the sound? I keep moving the mic around, but I feel like...
00:22Yeah, all good.
00:24Kids, how are you? Such a pleasure.
00:27Yeah, absolute pleasure to get you in that one.
00:29And by the way, if you're looking for some discount Bullwinkle things, this is the discount Bullwinkle market.
00:36Aside from these Buddy Christ posters for the Dogma re-release and whatnot, clearly, I have far too much Bullwinkle.
00:43I like that.
00:44Bears behind me. So, folks, write to kevinsmith at bullwinkle.com and I'll start selling you stuff cheap.
00:51We have no money over here. The economy is falling apart, so I got to start selling everything I got.
00:55Always shilling. I like it. Always working on the hustle.
00:58I mean, there is so much we can talk about with your career, your movies, the small cast stuff, the
01:02live Q&As, the TV work, bringing back Masters of the Universe.
01:05Thank you very much. Comics, books, a bunch of those are sat next to me.
01:09But today, specifically, we're mostly talking about Dogma, which is back in UK and Ireland cinemas from Friday, November 7th
01:16to mark the 25th anniversary of its release.
01:19A phenomenal movie about two fallen angels who were, I guess, essentially trying to exploit a loophole to get themselves
01:25back into heaven for those who may not have seen the movie.
01:27Now, obviously, there was rights issues with Dogma for the longest of time where it became really hard to track
01:32down unless you got that original DVD back in the day, which I was lucky enough.
01:35But how excited are you to bring this now to not just to a new audience, but to the big
01:40screen 25 years later?
01:42I mean, obviously, there'll be old fans like myself who will go and check it out.
01:45But just to have those those new kids who this is like, oh, this is this film I've seen and
01:49what I've heard about for ages.
01:50Now I can watch it in my theater.
01:52You know, I know we're celebrating the 25th on the surface, but it is technically the 26th.
01:58Just like the Catholic Church, we stretch our truth a little bit.
02:01It has been so lovely here stateside to bring it out.
02:06I did a 20 city tour and every night I got to sit there and see some of my favorite
02:11people I've ever worked with at their absolute youngest, for heaven's sakes.
02:16Matt Damon looks like Matt Damon's daughter in this movie.
02:19He's so young.
02:20That's how long ago we made it.
02:22So going out there with the flick every night, I would do an informal straw poll where I'd be like,
02:28how many people have seen Dogma before?
02:30Put your hands together and sounded like almost everybody.
02:32How many people have never seen Dogma in a theater?
02:36Put your hands together.
02:37And then, you know, like half of it.
02:40And I'd say, how many people have never seen Dogma before tonight?
02:44And there would always be like 5% of the audience applauding.
02:48And I'd be like, why the f*** would you overpay to see a movie because I was there with it
02:52that you haven't seen yet and stuff.
02:54So it brought in a small percentage of new folks.
02:58And seeing the returning people for whom, I mean, I watched this movie with my grandmother back when she was
03:04alive.
03:05This was her favorite flick.
03:06Or I watched this movie with the guy that I've been married to now for 20 years.
03:12And, you know, that means that my work as a filmmaker isn't nearly as important as their work as an
03:21audience member or as a fan of the movie.
03:23They carry it in their hearts so much so that 25 years after the fact, when I'm standing there with
03:28the movie going, hey, come see it.
03:30They'll shell out, they'll overpay to see a movie that they could watch on YouTube for free.
03:35So that has everything to do with not so much me and my abilities as a storyteller, but more where
03:42that movie occurred to people in the journey of their lives.
03:46And the longer I'm in this game, the more currency that particular viewer has.
03:54You got to remember, like in the beginning, people were jumping on board.
03:58Nobody knew what was going on.
03:59Will he be good?
04:00You know, will he be a great filmmaker?
04:02No, but he did make a lot of films.
04:04By the time we get to this point in my career, 31 years in, almost every year is like some
04:11anniversary, right?
04:12Like this year, we're saying is the 25th anniversary of Dogma.
04:15And technically, it's the 30th anniversary of Mallrats.
04:19And because of that, like you get to bring these movies back up and you get to see the audience
04:26that has grown with you.
04:27We had two Mallrats screenings at my movie theater.
04:29I got a movie theater in New Jersey, Smog Castle Cinemas.
04:31So last weekend, we did a Mallrats 30th anniversary screening with me and Jay doing a start-stop screening where
04:37you start the movie.
04:38And then after the first scene, you pause, get up.
04:41Both of us tell stories about that one scene.
04:43Then we sit down, unpause, watch the next scene, then pause, get up.
04:48Then we take a 90-minute romp and turn it into a grueling five-hour endurance trial and, you know,
04:54charge six and nine bucks.
04:55So looking out into the audience, it's a sea of faces that look like mine.
05:00You know, like white in the beards, white in the hair, wrinkles, crow's feet.
05:05We're all aging and stuff.
05:07But then it's like a descent into fresh young faces, teenagers, like what the audience used to look like when
05:17I began my journey.
05:18And you realize why they're there.
05:21One will get up and ask a question.
05:22You're like, why would you come see this old man movie?
05:26And like, because my parents, like, used to, you know, make me watch this when I was a kid.
05:32And, you know, you're like, what rep, a disreputable parent, reprobative parent.
05:35And that parent will stand up and be right there with them.
05:39So in the beginning, the journey was all about, like, oh, man, I want to tell these stories for me.
05:44You know, I hope the audience would go along with it.
05:47But it was more about how I felt.
05:49The longer you're in the job, it's way more about how the audience feels.
05:55The movie captures how you felt in a moment in time.
05:58But the audience then dictates how you get to feel about it for the rest of your life.
06:03My audience is making me feel wonderful about Dogma.
06:07So much so that it's beautiful that it's come back and people get to go see the theater.
06:12There'll be a hell of a steel book at the end of the year and stuff.
06:15But for me, this movie never died.
06:17Like, all the movies are active in my life because the characters pop up in other flicks.
06:21Or, you know, like there's an issue of my Quick Stops comic that comes out next week, which is a,
06:26we call it Requiem.
06:27And it's a Metatron re-meets Jay and Silent Bob for the first time in, like, 25 years.
06:34So Matt Damon popped up as Loki in Reboot.
06:38So for me, these movies never end.
06:41You know, like I've said many times, if you're good at your job, the movie begins for the audience long
06:46before they get in the theater.
06:47And if you're a magician at your job, you don't have to let the movie ever end.
06:50You could just keep that experience going.
06:52So in my world, which is easy to manage because it's not everybody.
06:55I don't have, like, Chris Nolan ardent fans.
06:58I have Kevin Smith ardent fans.
07:00But to be able to, like, keep the story going for those cats.
07:05Dogma coming back to the theaters is not only, oh, I get to watch Dogma again.
07:09It's part of the Dogma narrative now.
07:11It's like, oh, my God.
07:12He took it to Cannes twice.
07:14And then I went to see him years later.
07:16He had white in his beard and he was talking about it.
07:19And, you know, suddenly that extends the life of the movie and the longevity of the movie, of course, but
07:27also the legend of the movie.
07:29And sometimes that's something that the filmmaker can't do anything about.
07:34You could help foster it by being available to the audience and stuff.
07:38But the audience is going to decide if stuff lasts.
07:42And my audience decided a long time ago that they were never going to let Dogma go.
07:49So now with the larger audience kind of re-embracing, oh, yeah, I remember that movie.
07:53That's just, you know, whipped cream on top of a ridiculously large sundae full of ice creams that I love
08:00that are vegan with peanut butter poured all over it.
08:04Great way to sum that up.
08:05You touched upon it, obviously, Matt Damon.
08:07But the cast itself is, like, stacked.
08:09I mean, Linda Fiorentina just absolutely killing it.
08:12Affleck, Damon, Chris Rock, Salma Hayek, Alanis Morissette.
08:16Musing yourself, of course, my boy, Jason Lee.
08:18But there's two in particular I'd like to highlight.
08:21Alan Rickman and, of course, George Carlin.
08:24Now, George Carlin, one of the greatest comics comedians of all time.
08:30Alan Rickman, one of Britain's greatest thespians.
08:33Firstly, with George Carlin, I know, obviously, yourself, you're a massive fan.
08:36But how was it for you getting to work with him that first time?
08:38And also, I believe you got to introduce him to your dad, which must have been very cool.
08:41And also, I believe Alan Rickman and Jason Mewes became the most unlikely of best pals.
08:45They did.
08:47For me, having Carlin in the movie, having both of those dudes, Carlin and Rickman, let me untold credibility that
08:54I still eat out on today.
08:56Like, we're having a conversation about it and stuff.
08:58The two absolute icons of their field who have since left us.
09:07But because, you know, I convinced them to come play with me once or twice.
09:14Forever now, I'm associated with absolute legendary icons who also gave me their best on camera.
09:25George, I was a massive fan of since childhood.
09:29My father gave him to me like a gift, gave me a class clown when I was nine years old,
09:36way too young for that.
09:37And he was just like, don't ever let your mother hear you listening to this.
09:41And I never gave this to you and stuff.
09:44So it was like, you know, sometimes in a movie or TV show, you see a father like share a
09:48beer with a son and be like, you're a man now.
09:51I never had that.
09:51But my father gave me like a George Carlin album was the closest thing to that.
09:54I had him going like, I could trust you with this.
09:57And George was hysterical, but he's also brilliant.
10:00He was smart.
10:01You know, he used a lot of colorful language words, but still absolutely brilliant, prescient.
10:08His material still holds today and in some ways is even more relevant today than it was when he first
10:14said it.
10:16But he loved to act.
10:17Never mind like being a comedian, man.
10:19He kind of backed into that.
10:20Like, you know, that was not his aim.
10:22He wanted to be Danny Kay in movies because he would go to movies with his brother and his mom
10:27and his mother loved Danny Kay.
10:28So a young George Carlin was like, that's what I'm going to be, the song and dance man in movies
10:32and whatnot.
10:33But it didn't work out for him that way.
10:35And he kind of backed into being a comedic legend.
10:38So whenever we made a flick, even if it was a Kevin Smith movie and we were like, hey, you
10:45want to come play?
10:46He like came running because he loved to act, man.
10:49Sorry, garbage truck going by.
10:51Loved to act.
10:52So he popped up in my movies, you know, multiple times.
10:56And one of the first times, Dogma, I got to introduce George to my dad.
11:01My dad was visiting set and George was there.
11:03And I was like, you know, George, this is my father.
11:07The reason that, like, I'm a George Carlin fan and gave me the album.
11:09George was like, oh, yeah, you're the bad parent that passed it on and stuff.
11:13So absolutely beautiful moment that, you know, Dogma, a movie about spirituality, afforded.
11:21You know, if you trace it back, thank God I was born a Catholic.
11:27Otherwise, I never get to introduce my father to George Carlin.
11:30Everything's connected.
11:31And with Rickman, I got this movie theater in Atlantic Islands, New Jersey.
11:37Smodcastle Cinema is where we do stuff all the time.
11:39But in that theater, back when I didn't own it, when I was a kid, just going to it as
11:45the Atlantic Highlands Twin Cinema, is when I went to see Die Hard.
11:48And I went into that theater to see Bruce Willis.
11:51But I came out going, who's the other guy?
11:54Oh, my God.
11:55Hans Gruber is amazing.
11:57And I was instantly an Alan Rickman fan.
11:59Now, if you are an Alan Rickman fan, naturally, the progression takes you to Robin Hood, Prince of Thieves, the
12:04next big role, studio role he had after Die Hard.
12:08But I tracked everything he did, man.
12:10We were in the video store age.
12:12So I would go to the cool video store, big choice or choice video, and find movies from overseas.
12:18Like he was in this movie Closetland with Madeline Stowe, of course, Truly Madly Deeply.
12:25January, man, he took like a bit part just because he liked the script and stuff.
12:29So I was an ardent fan of the artist, man, not just like the big mainstream hits and stuff.
12:35So it was never my idea to put him in the movie.
12:38But John Gordon, who was our exec at Miramax in those days, called me up one day and he was
12:42like, you'll never guess who we had here for a general meeting.
12:46I said, who?
12:46He goes, Alan Rickman.
12:48I said, Hans Gruber was in the Miramax building.
12:50Did he blow it up?
12:51And he goes, no, man, we were meeting with him, trying to convince him to be in this Merchant Ivory
12:55movie.
12:55And I was like, what did he say?
12:57He goes, all he wanted to talk about was whoever directed Chasing Amy.
13:00I was like, I directed Chasing Amy.
13:01He's like, yeah, man, we should send him a script for Dogma.
13:04So we sent him a script for Dogma.
13:06Fastest yes I ever got in the business.
13:09Generally, it's always from Jason Mewes.
13:11I don't finish the sentence.
13:12And he's like, I'm in.
13:13But we sent Alan the script two hours after he received it, the FedEx.
13:18He called him, was like, I'm in.
13:19And started to be helpful right away, man.
13:23It originally got us our first God, which was Emma Thompson.
13:26And then Emma Thompson had to drop out and stuff.
13:29So Alan didn't just bring himself.
13:31He was like, oh, I got a friend who'd love to do this as well.
13:35He was, you know, you would imagine.
13:39Like, this was a guy, of course, we have a thought of him in our heads, like, as Snape.
13:46I mean, we all know he's an actor.
13:47But when you think of Alan, most people of a certain age probably think of either Hans Gruber or Snape.
13:54Dude was a soft, absolute soft puppy in real life.
13:58One of the greatest actors ever lived, but just such a sweetheart.
14:02And the weirdest thing I ever saw on a movie set, still holds to this day, was we're in the
14:07third act of Dogman in front of the church and whatnot.
14:10All the characters are there.
14:11So every famous person in the world who's in that movie is there in front of the church.
14:18And I'm going to get a snack after I set up a shot.
14:21And I look at the front steps of the church.
14:24As I walk by, I see the weirdest thing I've ever seen.
14:27Jason Mews and Alan Rickman engaged in deep conversation.
14:30I remember thinking, what the fuck?
14:31Could these two possibly have to say to one another?
14:33So I see Alan later on.
14:35And I sidle up to him.
14:36And I was like, hey, man, if Jason Mews is bothering you, let me know.
14:39And I'll make sure.
14:40And he goes, Jason could never bother me.
14:42He goes, Jason Mews is the best that America can be.
14:45And I was like, stop it.
14:47And he goes, Jason Mews is an American icon.
14:49So he loved Mews.
14:51He thought he was so fascinating and original and adorable and stuff like that.
14:56And he gave us, you know, like I don't think Alan ever gave.
15:00He gave a mid, as the kids used to say, performance.
15:05So like every movie where he probably got paid lots of money, he gave us a performance of a lifetime,
15:13even though he got paid scale in our movie.
15:15So when I was touring the movie around the U.S. earlier this year in April and May, I spoke
15:23to Jay on the phone about midway through the tour.
15:25He's like, how's it going?
15:26Because normally he goes with me, but it was just me by myself for this.
15:30So he's like, how's it going?
15:31I was like, oh, my God, they still love you, dude.
15:32I was like, you know, at the end of the movie, during the curtain call credits, like you get the
15:39second loudest applause.
15:41And he's like, second.
15:43I said, Alan, dude, Alan gets the loudest applause.
15:47And Jason goes, wait till I fucking die, which I think Alan would have absolutely loved.
15:52I know we're very short of time.
15:55So just a very last quick, kind of double-headed, cheeky question.
15:58Where are we at with Dogma 2?
16:00And also, Hell Hath No Fury, Like a Woman's Gone for Sega.
16:03What about Mallrats 2?
16:05Mallrats 2, man, is like, oddly enough, it's going to be easier getting a Dogma sequel made than a Mallrats
16:11sequel.
16:12Universal has just no interest in it.
16:15So all I do is play the waiting game, man, where it's like periodically I resubmit.
16:18That periodically we find a department where it's like, oh, maybe they'll be sympathetic.
16:23Periodically we go back into Peacock and pitch it first as a movie, a TV movie, then as a series,
16:28whatever.
16:30It's been an uphill battle, to say the least, because we've been trying to do it for well over 10
16:35years now.
16:36And trying to do it for so long that we lost Shannon, man.
16:40So I can't imagine not walking in there with Shannon makes it any easier at this point.
16:48So I don't know that Mallrats 2 will ever happen.
16:51I'm starting to lose hope.
16:52But the good news is I can always make it a comic book, publish it as a comic book and
16:56stuff.
16:57But life is long.
16:58Turns happen all the time.
16:59I always, you know, I'm like, all right, if it ain't today, perhaps it's tomorrow and stuff.
17:05Meantime, I've learned not to sit around and wait.
17:08I move forward on other things.
17:09So in March, we go make our next Jay and Silent Bob movie, Store Wars.
17:14But I've been writing a Dogma follow-up, man.
17:17Taking my time.
17:17It's interesting because the kid that wrote Dogma believed in everything you see here.
17:21Like everything on the screen.
17:23That was not like Christian mythology.
17:25That was his fate.
17:27The guy who's writing the sequel is not that person.
17:30Doesn't have the same feelings.
17:32So the first time was the guy who believed in all that writing about somebody who doesn't.
17:38And the second time around, oddly, is it a guy writing about somebody who believes in all this, but he
17:43doesn't.
17:43So it's going to be interesting to see how it plays out.
17:46I would hesitate to call it a sequel because it's not like Rufus, Martleby, Jay and Silent Bob, they're back.
17:54It's not like everybody returns and we do the same thing again.
17:58But there's a place at the table set for anybody who was in the first Dogma.
18:02You know, the ones you'll see the most, I guarantee you are me and Jay.
18:07Because we're the cheapest element to bring back to the movie.
18:10You know, if you wanted to use Ben and Matt for as long as we had Ben and Matt on
18:14Dogma, it would cost me a lot of money at this point.
18:19Like, you know, those are dudes that can go over there and make 10, 15, 20 million dollars working for
18:23Netflix.
18:24So for the same amount of time.
18:26So for me, like on Dogma, everybody was young and upcoming and stuff like that.
18:30Their agents used to hate us back in the day.
18:33Patrick Weitzel, who was Ben and Matt's agent, like hated us because Ben and Matt would like do our movies,
18:39even though we weren't paying, even though we were paying like scale and stuff.
18:43So if I were to go back and be like, I need Ben and Matt for two months, like that
18:48is so incredibly cost prohibitive.
18:49I don't make those types of movies.
18:51That being said, everybody who was in the first one gets to come back if they want to.
18:56And Bartleby and Loki, where they come in, is like one of my favorite things in the movie.
19:03It is beautiful.
19:03And I get a little emotional even thinking about it right now.
19:07Brilliant.
19:07Well, hopefully we see that at some point somewhere down the line of Star Wars.
19:10But in the meantime, Dogma is back in UK and Ireland cinemas November the 7th, Friday, November the 7th to
19:16mark the 25th anniversary, cheekily 26 years later.
19:19And I can't wait to check out on the big screen again.
19:22Kev has been an absolute blast, man.
19:23I've been a fan for a long time, so it's always good to sit down and chew the fat with
19:27yourself.
19:27Any quick final words to share with your fans?
19:29And it has to be quick.
19:31You know, honestly, kids, going to see Dogma in a theater is a singular experience at this stage in the
19:38game with the state of the world as it is.
19:42And it's a beautiful throwback because like the issues that the characters are all dealing with in that movie seem
19:49quaint.
19:51Compared to the issues we deal with in the real world today.
19:54But what I love about the movie is if you go see it, you'll see what I saw when I
19:58took it on tour here in the States a couple of months ago.
20:01The movie is a child's prayer.
20:03This was what a young Kevin Smith believed church could be like.
20:08Like he, you know, went to church his whole life, was dragged by his parents, was an altar boy for
20:1112 years.
20:12And he felt that everybody in the church wasn't celebrating their faith.
20:16As we say in the movie, they were mourning it.
20:18So Dogma is that young, spiritually filled Christian Catholics attempt at presenting what he thinks would be the best version
20:31of the Catholic mass.
20:33Like fun story with anal jokes in it to keep you interested.
20:38So do with that as you will.
20:41As you watch it, just know that that was a early 20s.
20:45I mean, at late teens, early 20s, Kevin Smith ideal of how religion could be.
20:53Brilliant.
20:53A fantastic way to end it.
20:55Again, November 7th.
20:56Go and check it out.
20:57Kevin, it's been an absolute pleasure.
20:58This has been What Culture?
20:59I've been Andrew Pollard.
20:59This has been Kevin Smith.
21:00And we will catch you soon.