- 6 months ago
February 7 marks a historic day in Haiti’s turbulent past. Four years after the assassination of President Jovenel Moïse, the country remains gripped by violence, with criminal gangs controlling much of the capital and humanitarian concerns escalating. Today also marks the end of the Transitional Presidential Council’s term, an unelected body attempting to fill the governance vacuum. To discuss these ongoing crises, FRANCE 24’s Gavin Lee is joined by investigative reporter Ingrid Arnesen, who has covered Haiti for more than two decades.
Produced by Gavin Lee, Alessandro Xenos, Maya Yataghene and Guillaume Gougeon
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Produced by Gavin Lee, Alessandro Xenos, Maya Yataghene and Guillaume Gougeon
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00:00From there, let's go to Haiti. Haiti is making headlines this weekend for two reasons.
00:06An Olympic team of just two has gone viral after taking part in the Winter Games opening ceremony
00:11at Milan last night, or I should say their outfits went viral, which were based on the
00:16painting of one of the country's revolutionary leaders, Toussaint Louverture, on horseback.
00:20The figure of Toussaint was banned by the Olympic body, forbidding political ideology,
00:25but the horse remained. Take a look at this. This was a painting by the Miami-based Haitian artist
00:31Edouard Duval-Carré. You can see, I hope we can see the image, but if you can't, basically this was
00:39the image themselves of what they turned it into. So these are the outfits, one of the most stunning
00:44of the Olympics so far. For both of them, you'll see the horse right at the bottom. Let's see if
00:49we can show you the original artist image. So this is where it's from, and that's what they turned it
00:54into. Well, the Haitian-Italian designer Stella Jean has said, quote, despite the depleted resources,
00:59environmental degradation, and prolonged instability, Haiti has still something to offer
01:03the world. And one thing Haiti can always export is our art, our culture, and our creativity.
01:09Well, the other Haitian story-making headlines is the significant of today's date, February the 7th,
01:14an historic day of flashpoints in Haitian history. It was 1986. On this day, a popular uprising,
01:20forcing the last authoritarian ruler of the Duvalier dynasty to flee in exile here in France.
01:271991, Jean-Bertrand Aristide was inaugurated as Haiti's first democratically elected president,
01:32later overthrown in a coup. And February the 7th, 2021, the day opponents of the polarising
01:37president, Juvenal Moïse, said he should have stepped down to end his five-year term. He continued
01:42and was later assassinated, shot 12 times in his bedroom in the capital, Port-au-Prince. Reportedly,
01:48on the orders of the Haitian and Colombian elites involved in drug shipment routes. Four years on
01:53from that, with the political vacuum filled by armed criminal gangs that have spread across the
01:57capital, and who now control more than 80% of it, humanitarian groups are warning of a huge rise
02:02in violence, kidnaps, killings, and the effect of immunity for rape of women. All this despite ongoing
02:08efforts by a multinational police force having been deployed to try to help local officers. The 7th of
02:13February, critically important today because it's the end of the term for the Transitional
02:17Presidential Council, the TPC, an unelected group attempting to fill the vacuum and bring about
02:24order. Well, tonight I'm joined by the investigative award-winning reporter Ingrid Onneson, whose
02:29reporting has focused heavily on Latin America and the Caribbean. She's covered Haiti for more than
02:33two decades. Evening, Ingrid. Great to speak to you tonight. Thank you for coming on the programme.
02:38First of all, tell us about the TPC, this Transitional Council, why it's expiring today,
02:43and why this date is so key to what happens next.
02:48Well, there's two things that happened. As you mentioned, it was the end of the
02:53Duvalier dictatorship when Jean-Claude Duvalier fled Haiti to exile at four o'clock in the morning.
03:00And that day, I remember, the crowds came out waving flags, ecstatic at the thought that, well,
03:09this is the first path to democracy. So it was very important. But that's not what's happened in
03:16the last 40 years. And today, there should have been a new president inaugurated. And that was what
03:25was supposed to be the role of the TCP, the Transitional Presidential Council. That council
03:33was after, let me backtrack, after the death, after the assassination of Nel Moïse,
03:41there was musical chairs to have, to name a prime minister. And eventually, Ariel Henry was named
03:49then, he was pushed out. And in an effort to have some form of transition, the U.S., CARICOM,
03:58and various sectors of the Haitian society, finally put together this Transitional Council
04:05of nine members, two of whom can't vote, to see Haiti through to a path of new elections,
04:14security, which is paramount, and some stability. They've been in office for 22 months. They were
04:23not able to do that, but their mandate ended today. So there was huge anticipation about what was going
04:32to, what or whom is going to replace this Transitional Council. And today at a ceremony at 10 o'clock in the
04:41morning in Port-au-Prince, it was a ceremony that was held to bid goodbye to the council itself.
04:49Everyone was anticipating about three or four scenarios that would sort of sustain, be caretakers,
04:57or lead Haiti again towards democracy. And I think a lot of people were surprised when they said the
05:04prime minister of Alix Didier Fissimi was the one who was going to take over the reins of power
05:13and no one else. And so he's now been named in an official, unofficial role to guide Haiti towards
05:23elections and to bring security to a country that's devastated by the gangs and the ongoing
05:32humanitarian, the scale of the humanitarian. Well, let's get, let's go. I want to talk about
05:38that in a minute, because you've mentioned some really kind of revealing points about where we
05:43are now. It's a complex web, but ultimately it comes down to, as you say, this nine panel,
05:48nine men, personnel board, and you have the prime minister who remains in place right now.
05:56And the talk that around what was going on around him is basically they wanted to kind of inwardly
06:02launch a coup to oust him in favour of somebody else or three other people that appeared to want
06:06the job. Tell me about what your sense has been of the atmosphere from your contacts. What have
06:09you been hearing as to be what's actually been going on and why they haven't got to the point of
06:13announcing a president? Well, they haven't, they weren't able to hold elections and they didn't
06:22even get to that point. That's a transitional council. The internist and political rivalries
06:31are something that are intrinsic to the, to Haiti politics, Haitian politics, very difficult.
06:39In fact, the prime minister who will take the reins today was originally ousted last January.
06:49And so there was a race and there were several members that were supposed, yes, you're right.
06:55As of last night, I was being told that there would be sort of a two-headed commission
07:02that would have a general council with a couple members of the old council and a new prime minister
07:12who would not be Didier Fissime. This was as of last night.
07:18So, but what changed the years, honestly, is that Marco Rubio placed a phone call
07:23to the members of the council about 10 days ago. And he said, you guys, you have to stay put. We're not
07:31having any changes until February 7th, when there will be a new prime minister.
07:41The U.S. basically said, okay, this is what we need you to do. Don't make too many waves.
07:47And it's interesting because part of Haiti's instability has been an entrenched
07:54opposition to foreign interference. As we know, you know, the United States
08:01invaded Haiti and stayed for any several decades. And Haitians have been resisting. That's very
08:12important. They've been saying, no, we do not want foreign interference. That has been sort of a,
08:19that has been a bit of a strangling, has had an effect of strangulating the political process.
08:27Because I would say that given the fact that gangs control 85% to 90% of the capital and almost all
08:40parts of Haiti, the degree of violence and instability is beyond, beyond manageable.
08:49It has to change. And while Haitians are trying, they're proud of their country, the Haitian police
08:56has tried, it hasn't happened. And that's what shifted gears. Fils-Aime was very much favored by the
09:07U.S. embassy and by the Trump administration. So they got a phone call and they said, this is what
09:13we're doing. We're not going this other route of naming new groups, new people and a new prime
09:19minister. So essentially at the moment, Prime Minister Fils-Aime, to try to understand who's
09:24behind him, he's going this alone with U.S. support. And there's effectively no, the mandate has
09:29finished of the transitional council right now. So he's kind of where, just in a building
09:36somewhere in Port-au-Prince with security around him, but representing himself as the
09:39prime minister?
09:42Correct.
09:43Wow.
09:44Not unusual. Not unusual in Haitian politics. He is, he did say, he had a speech about two
09:53minutes at the ceremony this morning. He said he was going to have a council of ministers.
09:58What's not clear, are ministers staying? Are they being switched out? Fils-Aime is more of
10:07a kind of technocrat. He was a member of the Chamber of Commerce of Haiti. He was on one
10:14of the bank's boards. He's very much technology oriented, which is important for Haiti. But
10:22there are quite a lot of differences among political groups that have been around forever. I mean,
10:31you know, you have the Lavalas who are represented and the opposition to Lavalas. So there is still
10:41a very tense situation on the ground because not everybody's going to back Fils-Aime. As far as the
10:48population, this morning is quiet. And that's what I told people I was speaking with, but it's not
10:56clear. They're going to go along as long. And something else I wanted to mention, the presidency
11:03has, is tremendously symbolic for Haitians. And I remember afters of Nell Moise's assassination,
11:11people were devastated. I mean, everywhere was, it reminded me of Kennedy's assassination. People
11:19lined the roads of the railroad, the train that was going to go back, bringing his body. And people
11:26were absolutely paralyzed because the symbolism, I have my president, he's my president, is enormous.
11:36They take great pride, whomever it is. So now, since July 2021, there really hasn't been a president.
11:45And eventually, hopefully,
11:51a Fils-Aime is now taxed for taxed with the job of having elections. And they've said as early as
11:59August or September of this year. So that's where things stand. Very difficult. Yeah.
12:06When we listen to aid organizations, the situation on the ground doesn't get any better. In terms of
12:12reports, I mentioned, you know, carrying out rape, sexual violence against women with apparent
12:17immunity, violence, kidnapping, torture. There was this Kenyan-led force that was brought in to help
12:24the police force. The police force were diminishing in number. I think thousands disappeared. But now
12:28there seems to be a recruitment drive going on. About 4,000 new jobs being opened up, it seems.
12:34And yet this Kenyan-led force now replaced by a UN-authorized gang suppression force. Talk us
12:39through whether that's making any difference, this new gang suppression force coming in.
12:46Well, we'll have to see. It hasn't come in. What is in...
12:50It's been announced, but it's not operating. Is that right?
12:53No, not yet. That's correct. They've said that 5,500 troops would come and basically become the
13:02gang eradication force, joining the Kenyans, that number about 1,400 on the ground, but haven't been
13:15able to make a lot of progress for many reasons. That force... Now, I just want to remind you that
13:23for the last three years, four or four years, there's been debate at the UN about sending a force in
13:33to maintain security, to have elections. It's the catch-22 that goes on. But there's been so much
13:42argument about it that it's really... It hasn't come together all that efficiently yet.
13:48And this new force to suppress the gangs was just recently formed by the UN.
13:58And that's in hopes that people will put money into it, because what stalls this entire process, and there's been numerous UN missions in Haiti, was that it was either going to be Haiti-led or...
14:13Well, kind of complicated. But nobody wanted the UN to come in anymore. They had had a bad experience after
14:23after the UN was in Haiti, after Aristide was sent into exile again in 2004, and the UN troops left in 2017.
14:33There was a cholera epidemic that they created. So I'm sort of getting off the subject, but it's to come back to the issue that...
14:43The Haitians really didn't want a UN peacekeeping force. But there was nothing. It's just too overwhelming. Something had to be done. But nobody wanted to pay for maintaining troops on the ground.
14:58So the first ones were the Kenyans who volunteered. They... I don't have the exact amount, but they were paid.
15:04Yeah.
15:05And they were paid. And this latest effort just hasn't gotten off the ground yet. And as far as I know, it takes at least six months to form together this kind of peacekeeping mission.
15:19I mentioned, we talked about the Prime Minister, and I think for the last couple of years, if there's a name that's kind of become infamous associated with Haiti, it's Jimmy Chirizier, aka Barbecue, the notorious gang leader.
15:34And now you've talked about elections being likely, well, that being the vision, maybe August. But I'm just interested in how that operates in a lawless, you know, semi-lawless society across the country, particularly in the capital, where they're going to see criminal gangs try to infiltrate that system to legitimise the power with a popular vote, even if through coercion. Is that... That clearly must be a risk.
15:57Well, it's a huge risk. I interviewed Barbecue in August 2021, really. So I got to know him and he is the most powerful of the gang leaders because he was a police chief, a police policeman for 14 years.
16:18But the problem with the gangs is that much earlier on, back in the 2000s, they were ideological. I would not call the gangs today ideological at all. It's money, money and territory. Everyone will tell you that.
16:38However, Barbecue himself has said that Jimmy Chirizier, his name, it's Barbecue is his nickname, does speak. He's very fine-tuned to media, to publicity. And he has repeatedly said that he's after the oligarchs of Haiti, who the rich elite, and that's who he's defending.
17:06So that has been picked up. But it is a very awkward game, the issue of what to do with the gangs.
17:20A lot of people don't want negotiation. That was passed around for a while. Gangs want amnesty.
17:25But to control them. And by this, I'm saying is that there is no real agenda, political agenda with the gangs, control. It really is a sort of turf war among themselves.
17:38Well, that leads to the following question, Ingrid, which is, you know, if you and I are discussing Jimmy Chirizier Barbecue,
17:50the nickname apparently to the extent it was said that what he would do in terms of burning those of his opponents, which he's denied,
17:58he said it was a nickname when he got in the police force. But if you're sitting within, you know, intelligence agencies in the US...
18:03No, it was because his mother's... Sorry.
18:06No, tell me. He's called Barbecue because...
18:10Because his mother had a little stand and she sold barbecued chicken down the street and there were too many Jimmy's on his street.
18:19That's his version.
18:21Right. Now, if you're within, you know, if you're the Haitian prime minister,
18:26if you're within the security forces internationally or the US government,
18:31and you're looking at actually how to move Jimmy on barbecue, on elsewhere, dislodge him to try to get through to the gangs,
18:39you're quite well placed to answer this question and it's probably...
18:42You've probably given me extent of some of it.
18:44What would dislodge him? What does he want? Is it purely about money?
18:48How could you get rid of him?
18:51Well, you know, there was a time way back
18:54where there was a disarmament committee to deal with the gangs.
19:01And it was a good effort.
19:02It was run by a Haitian man I met, part of the government, who wanted to reintegrate the gangs.
19:10And I think it would have worked at the time, but I think the gangs have gotten out of control.
19:15A guy like Barbecue was already speaking to the disarmament committee.
19:18And this was back in June of 2021.
19:24It's for the prime minister, the sitting prime minister now, what does he do about the gangs?
19:33Well, what has happened is that there are outside private companies, Eric Prince is there.
19:49And he signed, and it was this prime minister.
19:51There was a lot of controversy over it.
19:54There were a lot of rumors.
19:56Is it true? Is it not?
19:58Who would believe Eric Prince would surface in Port-au-Prince?
20:01It's not well-liked in the U.S. because of, you know, massacres.
20:07But it was rumor bandied around that he would get a fairly sizable contract to take care of the gangs
20:15because the police is outgunned.
20:19It can't do it.
20:21They seriously need help.
20:23And the Canadians and the U.S. have tried to send them equipment.
20:26But they're severely undermined.
20:30And the gangs are extremely well-armed.
20:33They have acquired very fancy equipment.
20:39But the sense is that they have to be eliminated.
20:44They just can't stay because they have wreaked havoc.
20:48They have dislodged one million people who are living in any empty building in the Capitol.
20:57Rape has been always used as a tool.
21:02Tool of repression.
21:03I remember back in, it was in the 90s, 92, I believe.
21:11I mean, there was, rape was being used.
21:14Again, women have had a very hard time.
21:16In fact, rape didn't become a crime until 2007.
21:20But if you put together the intensity of the violence, I mean, I know people, they're friends of mine.
21:30They don't know if they can cross a street because it would have a barricade run by gangs or sub-gangs
21:38or even young kids that have been recruited by the gangs.
21:43And it's at, you know, the guns at your head.
21:46Plus, they demand a huge toll.
21:49You can't circulate, whether in Port-au-Prince or to the outside, the north or the west or the south,
21:56because they're controlled by gangs, so commerce, transportation, distribution of gas.
22:06But primarily for the population every day is that, can the kids go to school at 6 o'clock in the morning
22:13without possibly being intercepted by a group of gangs and possibly killed.
22:20Yeah.
22:21So it's really hard to get to work.
22:23It's hard to do your daily activities.
22:29Teachers sleep at the schoolhouses because they can't go home.
22:33And they're worried about the kids.
22:37So it's a very, unfortunately, intractable situation.
22:43And it's a population what's called?
22:44And a lot of people are, yeah.
22:4712 million people.
22:48Sorry, Gavin, I interrupted you.
22:49No, we're in a population of 12 million people.
22:51And you're describing kind of the micro, which on the macro level is huge, isn't it?
22:56The ramifications.
22:57And I know we don't have a crystal ball.
22:59Well, from your experience, and I ask you because depth and insight matters here,
23:03what's your sense of where this is heading in the short term?
23:07Take us towards August, what you see happening.
23:09Do you think elections will go ahead?
23:14I'll be honest.
23:16And I'll tell you what many people tell me.
23:19They, we don't know what the solution is.
23:24Haitians don't know what the solution is.
23:27They can't come together.
23:30To agree on a kind of process.
23:33We'll see if they can get it.
23:34If they can work with the new, the prime minister who has now made the official prime,
23:40not really official prime minister, the caretaker of the government.
23:47It is so colossal.
23:49It is so overwhelming.
23:51Every time I go to Haiti, I say to myself, it's a beautiful island.
23:57That's why it was called the Pearl of the Antilles.
23:59Then you had, you know, beautiful buildings.
24:04Just, you know, and it's a rich island.
24:07It has resources.
24:08The mangoes fall on your head.
24:10But what I see now is a graveyard.
24:13Get out of the airport.
24:15The destruction of the capital caused by the earthquake, but they got a lot of money to
24:19start rebuilding, has not been rebuilt.
24:22There's two generations that have been growing up in very difficult conditions.
24:29It's very poor.
24:32And I'll tell you that the poverty, despite, I've been going to Haiti.
24:37I was there in 1986 when Duvalier left for exile.
24:41Well, and today, it's worse.
24:46Wow.
24:48It's very, it's tragic.
24:50I'm not intimating, but that's making it sad about the thing,
24:54is that there's some people who are starting to pine a little bit for the Duvalier days.
25:00The repression in the Duvalier was unbelievable, and it was barbaric.
25:06And even Andrew Jackson flew down to Haiti to find out what happened to 30,000 people that had disappeared.
25:14I mean, the city may have looked very nice, but underneath it, it was just a machine of torture, you know.
25:24That's why there was a brain drain.
25:27That's the other side.
25:28I couldn't tell you so much.
25:29But very many people left.
25:31So I think that Haiti is suffering from the kind of solid leaders that existed at a time that fled the country.
25:47A lot of the intelligentsia moved, you know, to Brooklyn, et cetera.
25:52And there's also, I mean, you want to stick your neck out and risk getting gunned down by a gang member?
25:59That's the question.
26:01And that's why, to answer your question, I honestly hope that there's some cohesion this time around.
26:16But it's very difficult.
26:17Yeah.
26:18So I can't say yes.
26:21Look, your frankness, you know, let's face it, pragmatism and clear, your care hasn't gone away for Haiti.
26:28And thank you so much for talking to us tonight.
26:31We will talk to you again about this in future.
26:33Ingrid Arneson, winner, I should say, of the Edward Murrow Award for coverage of Haiti,
26:38of the Alfred DuPont Award for coverage of Haiti, of the Peabody Award for coverage of terrorism as well.
26:43Thank you so much for being with us tonight, Ingrid.
26:46Lovely speaking.
26:47Thank you again.
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