- 4 weeks ago
On this Special Report, India Today's Akshita Nandagopal moderates a heated debate between Congress National Spokesperson Anshul Avijit and BJP Spokesperson RP Singh. The discussion centers on Rahul Gandhi's controversial claim that India is a 'dead economy.' Anshul Avijit defends the statement, asserting, 'The economy has been systematically being destroyed and killed by this government, beginning with demonetization.' He cites falling net FDI, lack of private investment, and poor rankings on the hunger and human development indices as evidence of a 'disastrous sign.' Conversely, RP Singh dismisses the claims, highlighting India's status as the world's fourth-largest economy and noting that 'almost 25 crore people have been brought out of the poverty line.' Singh points to massive infrastructure spending, robust banking, and self-employment schemes as proof of a thriving growth story. The debate explores contrasting interpretations of India's macroeconomic data, per capita GDP, and the impact of government welfare schemes amidst global economic turbulence.
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00:00I'll bring in on this broadcast our political panellists as well.
00:03We've got R.P. Singh, spokesperson of the BJP,
00:06and Anshul Avijit, national spokesperson of the Congress.
00:09Good evening, gentlemen. Thank you for your time.
00:10Anshul, I'd like to begin with you on the statement made by Rahul Gandhi.
00:14Look, it's one thing to question, Anshul,
00:16the tariffs that have been imposed by Trump,
00:18the impact of it, which is what Rahul Gandhi has done.
00:20But is it an exaggeration then to follow that up
00:22by calling India a dead economy?
00:26No, no, absolutely not.
00:28In fact, I think, you know, Mr. Gandhi put it rather mildly.
00:31I'm going to go even further.
00:33The economy has been systematically been destroyed
00:37and killed by this government,
00:40beginning with demonetization,
00:42completely destroyed India's backbone.
00:44If you remember after that,
00:45the GDP precipitated to levels that were,
00:49they came down even further during COVID.
00:51Then there was that clunky GST that took 11 years to get a reform.
00:55You know, I just heard Siddharth say that 2025 was the year of reform.
00:59If you're going to take seven years to reform a bad law,
01:04then you can imagine the pace in which the government is moving.
01:07We are absolutely doomed in that case.
01:09Then after GST came a lowering of corporate tax,
01:13they removed it.
01:13They thought it would, you know,
01:15somehow unleash animal spirits in private investment.
01:18That didn't happen.
01:19Then you had COVID,
01:20where household savings completely permitted.
01:22You've got decreasing investment in health and education
01:26that is seen by the budget year after year.
01:28Akshita, go and have a look at it.
01:30Please go and have a look at it.
01:32And time and again,
01:33the macro figures that are emerging are absolutely disturbing.
01:37Now, I'll just give you one macro figure.
01:39You'll say that the GDP in the Q2 was 8.2%,
01:42but the nominal GDP was 8.9%.
01:45So the real and nominal GDP are, you know,
01:48being technical here, moving in opposite directions.
01:51That's a clear disastrous sign.
01:53Your wholesale price index is barely nothing,
01:56which means there's no demand.
01:57There's no private investment.
01:59That's one of the questions Rajdeep also asked.
02:01Where is the private investment?
02:03And mind you, anyone who goes to Davos,
02:07you know, you have a large contingent people.
02:09It's a capitalist corporate gathering.
02:12Do you think anyone is going to say a bad thing?
02:14Do you know India is doomed?
02:16What kind of expect?
02:16Why not?
02:17I should not know that.
02:17I should not know that.
02:18Come on, these are global economies.
02:20They have no skin in the game.
02:22No, no, no, no, no.
02:23There, it's a different...
02:24Come on.
02:25Nobody's obvious there.
02:26They won't get visas next time to come to India.
02:28What are you saying?
02:29You know what happened to academics.
02:30Like Geeta Gopinath would not talk about pollution.
02:32She would not be honest and candid about pollution.
02:35Exactly my point.
02:36They moderated their replies by saying,
02:38no, our policy is fickle.
02:40It's got to look at again.
02:42The pollution is not there.
02:43Rajdeep asked the question about lack of transparency in data,
02:47which clearly shows you haven't had a national census in the last 11, 12 years.
02:53You just started it now.
02:54That means all your data coming in is to 2011, right?
02:58How can you develop economic policies if you don't know the population of your country?
03:03And therefore, it's a lack of transparency.
03:05It also said, the last gentleman that Rajdeep spoke to said that India is not in the conversation in the global economy.
03:12He said, China versus America, that you hear, we are completely marginal players.
03:16That is seen from the MAGTRO data, the FDIs that are coming in.
03:20I can go on and on, Akshita.
03:21This is my favorite topic.
03:23And, you know, I can just go on.
03:25Akshita, I will have a follow-up question for you.
03:27But let me give a chance to the BJP first to make their opening comments.
03:30Mr. R.P. Singh, go ahead.
03:32You've heard Akshita there talk about how and why the Congress believes that India is a dead economy.
03:37Your response.
03:38Well, Akshita, there's a part in the brain which is called palatial cortex.
03:46Probably Rahul Gandhi has a problem with that.
03:49That's why I see his palatial cortex being dead.
03:52That's why he keeps doing this and saying what he keeps saying.
03:56Indian economy is dead.
03:58We are the number four economy in the World Cup with Japan.
04:02I mean, how could we have done that good?
04:04We were among the 11th when UPA was there.
04:09And we have done much better.
04:10But coming to what's happening, our GDP is ongoingly growing from the last many quarters.
04:16And it still will grow.
04:17This is how all the world rating agencies, IMF, World Bank, feels about it.
04:22Secondly, almost 25 crore people have been brought out of the poverty line, above the poverty line.
04:28This is not my data.
04:29It's again World Bank which has said so.
04:32That we have almost 25 crore people have been brought out on the poverty line.
04:35And I still remember the welfare schemes, the money spent on welfare schemes, almost 50 lakh crore rupees,
04:40which we have spent in the last few years, and out of which has reached to every individual
04:46which was targeted with that welfare scheme.
04:50Unlike earlier, when it used to be only 15% which used to go and 85% used to be siphoned off
04:56or used to be filled, there was a filled fridge of 85%.
04:59We remember when we got the, we came to power, the state of the banks were, what was the state of the banks?
05:07Banks were in shambles.
05:09Today, banks are robust and doing well.
05:11And also, SBA is among the Fortune 500 companies in the world today.
05:16Not only that, let's talk about how we have grown on airways, roadways, railways, metro, bridges, rural roads.
05:25Every year, 11 lakh crore rupees is being spent on infrastructure itself.
05:31So, these are the parameters for the growth of economy.
05:34And also, how can we forget the defense?
05:36We used to always procure, almost import, 90% of the defense equipment.
05:42Today, we are producing, give me another second, we are doing almost 70% of the domestic production
05:48on the defense and how to forget the space technology.
05:51We are the cheapest in the satellite launch in the world and in the world where various countries
05:56are tying up with us for their satellite launches.
05:59So, on every parameter, we are doing good.
06:02Even on social parameters, we are doing good.
06:05As for generation of self-employment, there are schemes of the government which alone has
06:11been given to almost 42 crore people where self-employment has been generated.
06:16So, we are in what times when the world is in difficult times?
06:22And we are doing much better than various other economies in the world today.
06:25Anshul, you want to respond to that?
06:27That at a time when we have seen a lot of turbulence across the world,
06:30there are so many economists who, of course, you are choosing to say it doesn't matter
06:34what they have to say, but they are highlighting the fact that India is doing well.
06:38And in the face of an unpredictable Trump, God knows what he is going to throw at any country
06:43next.
06:43In the face of that, you know, the way India has chosen to respond, many, many experts have
06:49chosen to hail.
06:49I will highlight for you what the economist itself has spoken of.
06:52Speaking of Prime Minister Modi's economic pragmatism, they have said this reformist turn deserves
06:57praise.
06:58No, you know, Akshita, if you choose to look at the figure that India is, you know, a whatever,
07:06$4 trillion economy and, you know, weigh that against our economic progress, then that's
07:12highly misleading.
07:13It's a complete smokescreen because you have to look at the per capita GDP.
07:18Some people may be making a lot of money that may have skewed figures.
07:21Do you know, according to all the inequality reports that are coming in, 1% of the population
07:28owns 40% of India's resources.
07:31That truly cannot be the parameter to which to judge.
07:35No, Mr. R.P. Singh, I respect a lot.
07:37He's shown a lot of figures.
07:38Let me just respond to them.
07:39They're not inaccurate.
07:41Can I just respond to him?
07:42You know, he's a stable advocate.
07:44No, just look at the real figures.
07:46Which world are you leading into?
07:48Are you leading into a world, into a future where you celebrate a figure like 20?
07:53That may go to $8 trillion.
07:55It's not going to go beyond that because the economy is not progressing.
07:58There is a cloud of doubt against the GDP figure, which Mr. R.P. Singh also closed, which is
08:038.2%, because all your other macroeconomic indicators are terrible.
08:08Your FDI, your net FDI, which is capital inflows in India, your net FDIs fell to 96% last year.
08:17People are pulling their money out.
08:19They're not investing in India.
08:21Your PLI scheme, which is supposed to be Akshita, your flagship scheme, which also
08:25Farid spoke about in that interview.
08:27Let me just tell you a bit about it.
08:29You spent 2 lakh crores in making mobile sets, which are largely imported from China.
08:34You assemble them, and then you send them back and say that you've done a great deal.
08:38You spent 2 lakh crores in that investment.
08:41The government claims that they have made employment of 12 lakh employment by spending 2 lakh crores.
08:49They have claimed that.
08:50We don't even know how much employment has gone.
08:53This is complete imbalance.
08:54This realisation is an absolute disaster.
08:59All your economic indicators.
09:01By the way, your hunger index, you're 105.
09:03Your human development index, you're 140 out of 190.
09:07No, but you're also cherry picking here, Anshu.
09:09You're also cherry picking here.
09:11No, I'm looking at...
09:12You're choosing to ignore the positive side of it.
09:14I acknowledge...
09:15You know, what is the definition of a dead economy?
09:17What is the definition of a dead economy ultimately?
09:19That there is gross levels of iniquity.
09:24That few people make a lot of money, and the rest, which is reflected in your...
09:28These are macro figures, by the way, reflected in your per capita and all the reports that have come out.
09:33Nobody spoke about India's iniquity.
09:35Did anyone ask the question about what about your GDP, what about your global hunger index, what about your human development index?
09:42These are also, you know, foreign organisations.
09:45When you quote World Bank and say how great India we are doing, you should quote other organisations...
09:49No, so you're quoting World Bank, World Bank, you also quote a future upgrade, a GDP, fourth largest economy.
09:54None of that matters.
09:55You're ignoring all of that.
09:56No, no, I'm telling you it doesn't matter, because that money is controlled by, you know, your high frequency indicators.
10:02I admit, I'm not disputing what Mr. R.P. Singh is saying.
10:06Your high frequency indicators show a wonderful picture.
10:09That means rich are getting richer.
10:11Companies are making a lot of money.
10:13The stock market is going high.
10:14Where are they spending their money?
10:15They're not putting it in private capital, because that was Rajiv's question, right?
10:19It's everybody's question.
10:21They're not, what are they doing?
10:22They're de-leveraging.
10:23That means they're settling off their debt.
10:25The books are really robust, and they're making a lot of money.
10:28Where is the money going?
10:29Mr. R.P. Singh, your response, please.
10:32The Congress saying, essentially, rich getting richer, poor getting poorer in India.
10:37Well, Akhita, how many bridges, how many flyers, how many roads?
10:42I mean, can you imagine the road infrastructure?
10:43Actually, today, we are one of the best in the world today, as far as the road infrastructure goes.
10:49The, not the highways, the airports have been doubled.
10:53The hospitals have been doubled.
10:54I mean, all that generates employment.
10:57I mean, when you build up roads, it generates employment.
10:59And also, as I told you, the Prime Minister's self-employment scheme,
11:03there's almost 42 crore people who have taken small-scale loans from 50,000 to 5 to 10 lakh rupees.
11:09But they're also generating employment.
11:11And that is also generating employment.
11:13But the issue is, I mean, as I said, the man suffers from patrial cortex.
11:17I mean, you can't help him because Mr. Rahul Gandhi is a problem.
11:20No, no, Mr. R.P. Singh, let's stick to data.
11:21Let's stick to data and facts, please.
11:23Let's stick to data and facts to counter what the Congress has said, what you have to say.
11:26No, no, I told you.
11:26I just now told you.
11:27I just now told you.
11:29Okay.
11:29So you have highlighted...
11:30Give me a second, give me a second, give me a second.
11:33More than 16 crore people were given public, sorry, toilets.
11:39I mean, obviously, the money would have gone into it.
11:41It would have generated employment.
11:43I mean, you can build up 16 crore toilets without generating employment.
11:48The scheme for housing, more than 4 crore people were given houses last year, last five years.
11:56I mean, obviously, that would have generated employment.
11:58I mean, it can't be done in the thin air.
12:02So all these segments which are generating employment, they are being overlooked by my Congress friend.
12:08Okay, okay.
12:09You know, ultimately, ultimately, you can look at the data whichever way you want.
12:14You can cherry pick which side of the debate you want to be on and figure out what you really think of India's economy either way.
12:20But thank you very much, gentlemen, for joining me, Mr. R.P. Singh and Anshul Avajit for your time and for joining us here on To The Point.
12:25We leave it to you, the viewer, to decide whether you agree with Rahul Gandhi or not.
12:29Is India a dead economy or when economists say that India is thriving, India has got a great growth story, do you agree with that version?
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