00:00When I was developing the project with the directors and the writer, I thought that the puberi will be around 90% of the Japanese population who will die without seeing kabuki because it's just a luxury of life.
00:14So if we make a movie about it and if you can see it in $10, people will maybe want to come and see it.
00:20A long journey to the screen for this one, if I'm correct.
00:30So whoever wants to start, can you tell us a little bit about the origin story of how this movie started?
00:36I believe it's over a decade in the making.
00:39Hello, thank you for coming today.
00:41I'm Chieko Murata, the producer of the film.
00:43So over 10 years ago, director Lee had actually wanted to create a kabuki film.
00:54And some time had passed, and the novelist, Shuichi Yoshida, had written the novel by the same name, Kokuho.
01:03And so that's where things started to fall into place.
01:09So then production started approximately about four years ago.
01:13So starting with the script, but even a little bit before that, the director had already asked Mr. Yohei Taneda to be the production designer.
01:23So is it typical for you to be brought into a film that early as a production designer?
01:33Yes, if I have a relationship with a director, yes, they will call me on pretty early on.
01:37If it's a first-time director, it's usually not so much time.
01:45And actually, the first film I worked with, with director Lee, was 22 years ago.
01:50So we've had quite a relationship.
01:52With this film, I think everyone watching can see this incredible scope.
01:55So the amount of detail that goes into it is pretty awe-inspiring.
01:59So in those initial conversations on how you're going to mount the movie,
02:03what were some of the big picture talking points of how you were going to be able to make this,
02:08just, you know, in terms of budget and things like that?
02:10So the novel that Shuichi Yoshida had written was very, very interesting.
02:20It was really good.
02:22And so when I first sat down with the director, the conversation started with,
02:26it's going to have to be at least three hours.
02:29Like, that can't be helped.
02:31But we did discuss about, let's try making it a little less than three hours.
02:46And of course, one of the key points is to really correctly and vividly capture the Kubiki dance.
02:54And that really had to be portrayed correctly.
02:56And I myself really love, I'm a fan of Indian Bollywood movies.
03:01So I knew that if there was dancing segments weaved in within the story,
03:06that three hours wouldn't be so bad.
03:11And so the director definitely wanted to have this movie be entertaining.
03:17There could have been a tendency to, let's say, lean towards more art house, beautiful film,
03:23but there was an intention to have it being entertaining.
03:26So that's where Mr. Teneda comes in to capture the beauty.
03:32And so, you know, compared to, let's say, a Hollywood budgeted film,
03:36you know, this was shot in Japan,
03:37but we were very intentional to make sure we had the budget,
03:40the time, and the money to do this as well as we wanted to do it.
03:45So, Teneda-san, can you talk a little bit about your relationship to Kubiki, maybe,
03:52as a starting point, just for your way into this, you know, epic world?
03:59Kubiki is something, yes, I've been watching for almost my life.
04:05And actually, over 10 years ago, there was a possibility for me to have worked on a Kubiki film.
04:11It didn't happen then, but fast forward to now,
04:15everything kind of clicked in place,
04:17and I was able to help production design a Kubiki film.
04:22What was most exciting to you about getting to design a Kubiki film?
04:25Of course, it was challenging to create a Kubiki stage.
04:36And just for context for everyone,
04:39Kubiki in that stage was born in the Edo period,
04:42so over 300 years ago.
04:44So to be able to recreate that was a great challenge.
04:48It's interesting to me that there really haven't been a lot of films centered on Kubiki.
04:51Can you just talk a little bit about that,
04:53just in terms of getting this film made,
04:55why it hasn't been very common in Japanese film?
05:02Just to raise what has been created in the past.
05:06So currently, Shochiku is a production company that owns a copyright to Kubiki.
05:11And so there's one way that, how that is produced,
05:14Kubiki is produced in Japan,
05:15but also each house, each family also passes down,
05:20as you can, as you probably learn from the film,
05:22they pass down their specific stories.
05:25So that's how Kubiki exists today.
05:27So Shochiku has, in the past, created dramas.
05:32And, for example, director Mizoguchi has created Kubiki films in the past.
05:37So, um, fast forward to now, um,
05:43director Lee wanted to create a Kubiki film based on the Onnadata,
05:47which is the male actor portraying a female.
05:51And so we did actually go to Shochiku,
05:53and we did meet with them.
05:55However, because our story was based on the novel,
05:58and not a different original story,
06:01um,
06:02they weren't that inclined to participate.
06:05So we actually then approached the Nakamura family,
06:08who is, uh, very...
06:10Oh, I can't do it.
06:11Yeah, Nakamura Ganjiro.
06:12Uh, is, uh,
06:14one of the big Kubiki actors now,
06:16and to actually get permission to work with his family,
06:19that lineage.
06:20Because in the Kubiki world,
06:22as you can tell, it's very, very old,
06:24and you need some sort of insider connection
06:26in order to get the proper permissions.
06:28So we ended up, uh,
06:30working with Nakamura Ganjiro's family in that lineage.
06:34Can you talk a little bit about the casting of the film?
06:37I mean, you have to have multiple actors
06:39playing these roles in a couple cases.
06:41It's a huge, again, ensemble.
06:44Um, but really, these two boys and then men
06:47anchor the film in such a beautiful way.
06:52What did you think about the actors?
06:54And we're really proud of them, for sure.
07:02So, director Lee, from the very beginning,
07:05um, said that, uh,
07:07Ryô Yoshizawa,
07:08who is the, uh, actor, uh, portraying Kikuo,
07:11um, because the director felt like, uh,
07:14Mr. Yoshizawa's portrayal
07:16really reflected the Kikuo of the original novel.
07:19So that was our initial conversation
07:21that I had with the director,
07:23and that's where everything started
07:25moving casting-wise.
07:31So not only is Kikuo a very challenging role
07:34to portray,
07:35Shunsuke, um,
07:37the adopted brother, best friend, and rival,
07:40um, that was also
07:41a very difficult, um, role to cast.
07:43So once Ryô Yoshizawa said yes,
07:46we had to move on to Shunsuke.
07:48And, um, so myself and the other producer,
07:51Matsuda-san, and the director, we all sat down.
07:53And, uh, currently, uh,
07:55Ryusei Yokohama, who portrays Shunsuke,
07:58is quite the star in Japan.
08:00So after some discussion
08:01with the director and the producers,
08:03we ended up, uh, landing on him.
08:05Because, um, the film spanned so much time,
08:11I'm curious if there was anything
08:12in the production design
08:13that you wanted to convey
08:15just in terms of the evolution
08:16of Japan.
08:17We start in the 1960s,
08:20um, and maybe Kabuki's relationship
08:21to Japan as it evolves through time.
08:23So, uh, we're talking 1965 to 2015
08:30is what we're tracking with Kikuo's life.
08:34And I, and, uh, and throughout those years,
08:36we see the Kabuki stage.
08:38And as I had mentioned before,
08:40that Kabuki stage has not changed
08:41for the last three, over 300 years.
08:43So for me, I saw it as
08:46how does the Edo era reflect
08:48at that certain decade?
08:50So how does that, um,
08:52Edo era stage look like in the sixties
08:55than the seventies?
08:56And then when we have the,
08:58when Kikuo has his final, um,
08:59the stage appearance too,
09:01um, in the 21st century,
09:03what does that stage, um,
09:05down to the details look like?
09:07So for me, it was a relationship
09:09between that 300 year old Edo stage
09:12and whatever decade we were looking at.
09:14So that was kind of a time collaboration
09:16that I approached it with.
09:18Are there any details you can share,
09:21like specifics that indicate
09:22that passage of time for you
09:24in the, in the design?
09:28So, um, an example would be,
09:35uh, the main house,
09:36the, uh, Oogaki family house,
09:38which is the, uh,
09:39the Kabuki family we follow.
09:41So if you look at the little details
09:44in the living room,
09:45you might see different electronics.
09:46Every time we go back
09:48into that, in that home
09:49throughout the ages,
09:50you'll see the electronics
09:51start being updated.
09:53Maybe some of the dishware
09:54and some of those details
09:56will be, um, will be updated.
09:58And then, you know,
09:59the father dies
09:59and there's more sense of time.
10:02But, uh, what I also added
10:04to contrast is that
10:06the rehearsal space,
10:07you know, in that stage,
10:09any of those, uh,
10:10I wanted to have a contrast
10:11that the legacy arts
10:12don't change
10:14despite how much time has changed.
10:16So there's a consistency
10:17in those spaces.
10:20As we've been talking about,
10:21Kabuki has these
10:22very fixed traditions,
10:23um, and, and a certain staticness,
10:26but the heart of the movie
10:28is this relationship
10:29between these two men.
10:31And, and through that,
10:32you explore these ideas
10:34of bloodline and things like that
10:35that are so core to,
10:36to Kabuki.
10:38Can you talk a little bit
10:39about how that became
10:40the, the anchor of the movie
10:41and what you wanted to explore
10:43through the relationship
10:44between the two of them?
10:49It was actually decided
10:51pretty, pretty early on.
10:53The novel actually
10:53has many more characters
10:55and it's quite complicated
10:56compared to a film
10:58as much, many novels are.
11:00So when we sat down to,
11:02um, to create the structure
11:04of this movie,
11:05we were very, um,
11:07uh, intentional that,
11:09you know, we would have
11:09Kiko's through line
11:11and then we have Shunsuke
11:12coming in as the rival
11:13and to have that, uh,
11:15discussion, uh, be that,
11:17you know, talent versus blood
11:18and we, we grow up
11:19in those circumstances.
11:21So that was a very intentional,
11:22uh, some of the core elements
11:24that we decided, you know,
11:26very, very early on.
11:27And even if you are a non-artist,
11:35uh, talent comes in many
11:37different shapes and forms.
11:39So, um, we felt that,
11:41you know, whether you're talent,
11:42you're born with that talent
11:43or it's, let's say, given to you,
11:46there's going to be some sort of loss
11:48along the way.
11:49And we thought that,
11:50we really felt that was
11:51a universal theme.
11:52So the director
11:53and the screenwriter
11:54and ourselves
11:55were very, um,
11:56were very intentional
11:57with following that.
11:59Now, um, Teneta-san,
12:00you have worked on
12:01shorter movies
12:03made for more money,
12:04let's say,
12:05than this one.
12:06This is, you know,
12:06for what you had,
12:08the resource you had,
12:08it's, it's an incredible
12:09amount of design.
12:11Where did you have
12:12to get creative?
12:13Where did you feel
12:14the challenges
12:14maybe of the budget
12:15versus the scope
12:16of the movie?
12:17That's a really
12:21hard question.
12:27Yeah, so, um,
12:29yes, it was very challenging.
12:31And I would probably say,
12:33um, we did focus
12:34on the latter half
12:35of this, of the story.
12:38And, uh, when Kiko
12:40and them are in Tokyo,
12:41they are at a theater
12:42called Hinomoto
12:44and that's a Hinomoto theater.
12:46And so, the story
12:47of that theater
12:48is actually,
12:49it starts as a small theater
12:50and it gets bigger and bigger.
12:52And so, we see that more
12:53in the latter half
12:54of the film.
12:56And in Japan,
12:57you cannot rent
12:58a kabuki theater.
12:59And, but what was
13:00more important
13:01was to create a space
13:02where the actors
13:03could fully, uh,
13:05engage in the space,
13:07fully perform,
13:07fully dance.
13:08And so, that definitely
13:10had to be a set.
13:11So, we already, um,
13:12knew that
13:13from the very beginning.
13:14Uh,
13:15So, um,
13:21we literally
13:22recreated
13:23an entire
13:24kabuki theater,
13:25not just from what
13:26you can see
13:26from the audience side.
13:27We are talking
13:28down to the seats
13:30that all the background
13:30were sitting in,
13:31the runway,
13:32underneath the stage,
13:34where they're running
13:35through that maze,
13:36and also backstage.
13:38Um, all of that
13:39was, was actually
13:41practically,
13:42we just recreated
13:43a kabuki theater.
13:45Amazing.
13:46And how-
13:46Even, even the elevator.
13:48Yeah.
13:50Yeah.
13:50So, you need to
13:50dig a hole
13:51in the studio
13:53in Kyoto.
13:53And also,
13:54big curtain.
13:56And top.
13:58Yeah.
14:00And, and how long
14:00did the actors
14:01train for?
14:02A year and a half.
14:04Yeah.
14:05That's amazing.
14:06And there are
14:07literally the
14:08business actors
14:09in Japan,
14:10but they
14:11sustain some
14:13of the work
14:14and focus
14:14on training
14:16so hard
14:17that sometimes
14:18they just go
14:19to the training
14:20four days a week
14:21and they are
14:22wearing yukata,
14:23the Japanese kimono,
14:24at home
14:24to be able
14:26to be in a feel
14:27of the act,
14:28like the character.
14:30I'll close
14:31by maybe asking
14:32both of you
14:32about the impact
14:34of this film.
14:34For those who don't know,
14:35this film is a phenomenon
14:36in Japan.
14:37It's made about
14:38$100 million.
14:40It is resonating
14:41on a really
14:41profound level.
14:42So, why do you
14:43think that is?
14:44Why has this movie
14:44landed in such
14:45a powerful way?
14:49So, first,
14:50I would say that
14:51probably in the last
14:5250 years,
14:53Japan has not seen
14:54a film where
14:56kabuki is the
14:57main focus.
15:01At the same time
15:02as the absence
15:03of kabuki films,
15:04it's really
15:05the youth.
15:06As young people,
15:08it would be
15:08kind of equivalent
15:09to how familiar
15:09are we with opera
15:11if you're in your
15:1220s or 30s.
15:13And kabuki now,
15:15you have to pay
15:16a little bit more
15:16money to actually
15:17go see,
15:18but we actually
15:20put this,
15:21you know,
15:21it's in a movie
15:22theater now
15:22and it's so much
15:23more accessible.
15:24And on top of that,
15:25we were focusing
15:26on the onnagata,
15:27the male actor
15:28portraying female.
15:29and in the film,
15:31they're able to
15:32learn just how
15:32much work.
15:33It's not easy
15:34that it takes.
15:36And of course,
15:37our two lead actors
15:38are quite the draw
15:39for the young folks
15:41too.
15:42So I think it's,
15:42we haven't seen
15:43a kabuki film
15:44in a while
15:45and also the
15:46younger audience
15:47is exposed to
15:48something they
15:49only knew a little bit
15:50and it's really
15:50opened up their world.
15:51So I think
15:52those two things
15:53are a big impact.
15:53Anything to have?
15:56I think in terms
15:57of the kabuki,
15:58I'll say it
15:59in English,
15:59but kabuki
16:00aspect,
16:02yes.
16:03Kabuki,
16:04if you wanted
16:04to see kabuki
16:05in Japan,
16:06you need to go
16:06to a certain
16:07big city,
16:08either Tokyo,
16:09Kyoto, Osaka,
16:10or Fukuoka,
16:10or Nagoya.
16:11And you need
16:12to pay more
16:12than a hundred
16:13US dollar
16:14to see it.
16:15So I,
16:17when I was
16:17developing the project
16:18with the directors
16:19and the writer,
16:20I thought that
16:21their property
16:22will be
16:23around 90%
16:25of the Japanese
16:26population
16:26who will die
16:27without seeing kabuki
16:28because it's just
16:30the luxury of life.
16:31So,
16:32but we learned
16:33about kabuki
16:33in school.
16:35So if we make
16:36a movie about it
16:37and if you can see
16:38it in $10,
16:39people will maybe
16:39want to come
16:40and see it.
16:42And I think
16:43another reason
16:44is that
16:45because it's
16:46so cinematic
16:47and I hear
16:49a lot of people
16:50like the movie
16:51opened okay
16:52in Japan,
16:53but not great
16:54for the first weekend.
16:56But later on,
16:57it became
16:58more and more
16:58thanks to
16:59the word of mouse
17:00and what I heard
17:01the most is
17:02it's worth the money.
17:04If you are able
17:06to see this
17:07with 10 US dollar,
17:08it's cheap.
17:10So people
17:10started to,
17:12like that was
17:12a really great compliment
17:13but also
17:14as a cinematic
17:17experience,
17:18it's something
17:19that we wanted
17:20to bring
17:20like the reason
17:21to go to see
17:22in the movie theater
17:23instead of watching
17:24on the screen
17:26in the house
17:27or on the streaming.
17:29So I think
17:29that's another reason
17:30why it became
17:31successful.
17:32I was going to say
17:33it helps that you
17:34made a pretty
17:34great movie.
17:36Thank you all
17:37so much
17:37for coming out tonight.
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