- 11 months ago
It is vital that Scotland’s homes are decarbonised at pace if the country’s target of reaching net zero emissions by 2045 - five years ahead of the rest of the UK - is to be met. This topic is the focus of a new episode of The Scotsman Sustainable Scotland podcast, in association with social enterprise Changeworks.
The podcast features: Josiah Lockhart, chief executive of Changeworks; Sam Cribb, retrofit strategic development manager at Changeworks; and Rebecca Lovell, senior business model consultant at Energy Systems Catapult, a not-for-profit organisation that works to accelerate the journey to net zero.
The podcast features: Josiah Lockhart, chief executive of Changeworks; Sam Cribb, retrofit strategic development manager at Changeworks; and Rebecca Lovell, senior business model consultant at Energy Systems Catapult, a not-for-profit organisation that works to accelerate the journey to net zero.
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00:00Hello, I'm Rosemary Gallagher and welcome to our Sustainable Scotland podcast, brought to you by
00:07The Scotsman. Scotland's national newspaper since 1817, now bringing you fresh and relevant content
00:13for the 21st century. Sustainable Scotland looks at how Scotland is doing its efforts to be cleaner
00:18and greener for the next generation. In this episode, in partnership with Social Enterprise
00:22Changeworks, we're focusing on how to decarbonise Scotland's homes on the journey to net zero.
00:27Our guests are Josiah Lockhart, Chief Executive of Changeworks, Sam Cribb, Retrofit Strategic
00:33Development Manager at Changeworks, and Rebecca Lovell, Senior Business Model Consultant at Energy
00:40Systems Catapult. Could you all please introduce yourselves and your organisations please, starting
00:44with you Josiah. Hi, I'm Josiah Lockhart, I'm the Chief Exec at Changeworks. Changeworks is one of
00:51Scotland's leading social enterprises focused on supporting households to both decarbonise but
00:57also to work across the country to make sure households aren't left behind and those in
01:01fuel poverty are brought with us to do the transition.
01:05Thank you Josiah, and Sam, you're at Changeworks as well, tell me a bit about your role.
01:09Yep, hi, I'm Sam Cribb, Retrofit Strategic Development Manager at Changeworks. I led on the development
01:16of Changeworks home retrofit service, EcoCosie, and also lead on developing and testing new services
01:24across different housing tenures at Changeworks. Thank you, and Becky. Hey, I'm Becky Lovell from
01:31Energy Systems Catapult. So I'm a Senior Business Consultant at the Catapult, and we're a not-for-profit
01:38research organisation that's trying to help accelerate innovation across net zero, across the whole energy
01:44system. My particular interest is in business models for decarbonising homes and a trust transition.
01:51That's great, thank you everyone. Today we're going to talk about decarbonisation of homes. It's
01:56obviously a big topic and an important topic. So if we look first at the benefits of decarbonising our
02:02homes, both to individual households and to society as a whole, who would like to kick off with that one?
02:08But I think looking at the main drivers and individuals' homes, looking at our kind of
02:15situation here in Scotland where we have some of the least performing homes as far as energy is
02:20concerned, and we're literally sending energy out through our windows and doors and through our walls,
02:25that by decarbonising isn't just about reducing the carbon, which of course has a major benefit to the
02:31climate. But it also ensures that we help have warmer homes, cheaper bills, and helps tackle fuel
02:37poverty at the same time as creating big economic opportunities for local suppliers, local contractors,
02:44and the like across. I think Sam and Becky have perspective on it as well.
02:51Yeah, so I'd say our homes are where we can all feel the impacts of the energy crisis and probably the
02:57effects of climate change. So as I just alluded to there, so unfortunately our homes are one of
03:04the biggest sources of carbon emissions. So about 13% of Scotland carbon emissions come from domestic
03:11properties. So I'd say every home that's better insulated, every heat pump or solar panel that's installed
03:19can provide tangible climate action. And at Changeworks we're here to help people take action
03:27where they can. So as I said, that's about lowering energy bills through better insulation and more
03:33efficient heating and hot water. And I'd also probably bring into that as well, improving
03:40leaky and damp homes. So when I say leaky, I mean sort of those that are not well insulated. So letting
03:47cold air let out a lot of heat and damp homes. So in order to make those homes warmer and healthier for
03:55families. And also provides peace of mind knowing that our homes are future ready for dealing with
04:02the impacts of climate change. I kind of like the term living more sustainably more than decarbonizing
04:09because a lot of the kind of like opportunities and benefits that come with decarbonizing like they
04:15also come with reducing our energy usage. So decarbonizing is about making sure that the energy that we use
04:20is green and like not emitting carbon dioxide. But also, yeah, as Josiah and Sam have already
04:28said, you know, by reducing our energy demand, we can also reduce our energy bills, make our homes
04:33cheaper to run, you know, make them warmer. And by having warmer homes has significant benefits for
04:40health and well-being as well as reducing our environmental impact.
04:43Thank you, everyone. There's clear lots of benefits to living more sustainably or decarbonizing.
04:51But it's not happening fast enough. So what are the key issues faced in Scotland when it comes to
04:56both living more sustainably and decarbonizing our homes to do with the nature of our housing stock,
05:01our weather? What are the big issues and challenges?
05:04Well, pace is a big one. So if you look at what Changeworks has done in the past year alone,
05:10so we supported around 13,000 homes, majority in Scotland, a bit of a few into England and Wales,
05:18to decarbonize in the past year, that sounds like a really big number. But when we start looking at,
05:23you know, if we take Scotland by itself, and we used to have a million homes by 2030 target,
05:28the Scottish government evolved recently. But if we were to still work with that number,
05:33that 13,000 should be 120,000 a year just to be on track for a million homes by 2030. So the gap
05:40is growing. And every year we miss that, we that 120 gets bigger and bigger because we keep stacking
05:45them out. And I think there's simply the recognition that the pace is not there. But at the same time,
05:50I think we have questions around how we do it sustainably, how we bring everybody with us.
05:56Finances is something that keeps coming back in. As we're aware, government doesn't have the same
06:02ability to pay for everything that they we may have asked them to or thought they could do, or even
06:08the levers that they thought they had to do that. So one of the big barriers is how we create the
06:13most appropriate business models to help encourage this to happen faster and at a larger pace to come
06:18through. We know how to do it technologically. There's very few properties in the UK that we don't
06:24know the physics of to be able to install the right heating system or insulate it or get the energy bills
06:29down. But the kind of systems bit about how we do it fastly, how we bring everybody with us and don't
06:35just lump the cost of it on the the homeowner or the tenant is is one of the big challenge. I know
06:41this is a place that the images and catapult is innovating a lot on the kind of pace and
06:46technological change. I know Becky wants to throw some of that in.
06:52Yeah, so we've been doing a lot of kind of large scale trials of things like heat pumps and you know,
06:58new heating systems, new storage technologies for people's homes. But yeah, like you're saying that the
07:04issue of kind of like how to pay for these things, how to kind of get people on board with the idea
07:09of having them in their homes, just like increasing the appeal or the kind of like understanding of
07:14these technologies is still quite a big challenge. And I think there are definitely still some kind of
07:20types of properties that make it more tricky. So things like flats and tenements, you've got an issue
07:27of not only are these like quite old buildings or sometimes, you know, like quite lovely aesthetic
07:32features that you want to preserve or like difficult kind of like detailing that can make it tricky to
07:35insulate around. But also if you have a building which has kind of like multiple owners or kind of
07:41leaseholders in there, then it can be quite tricky to get everyone together to agree on and like find
07:47the funding or provide the finance to kind of make that change happen. So yeah, lots of little issues.
07:52Yeah, lots of challenges there. And we've already touched on some of these points. But in terms of
07:59I think poll data from Changeworks really draws it out. I found the majority, 71% of people in
08:04Scotland support sustainable energy, but around two thirds are concerned the UK isn't investing enough.
08:10And 83% are very concerned, understandably, about steep rises in energy prices. I mean, what do you
08:15think can be done to address these challenges? Who can help and how can people help?
08:19I think it's a really interesting dichotomy because sometimes the public narrative that we read or
08:26hear is that this isn't what people want and that people are more worried about certain things and
08:32not about climate and not about their homes. But I think there's an interesting thing that stood out
08:37to me when we when we did this independent polling data to show that people do think that they just may
08:43not be vocal about it in the same way that as other parts of conversations are happening.
08:50So I think there's one of the big tasks is helping that voice become a bit louder. So how do we start
08:58building, demonstrating that people have that viewpoint and demonstrating that people want that
09:03and seeing the economic opportunities, because it's not, you know, carbon is a huge thing. And also the
09:07warmth of our homes, which is kind of core to all of this, make sure we live in, you know, affordable,
09:11warmth homes. But those opportunities to help with energy security, help with jobs, help to build our
09:21economy into that net zero future, which most of the world is moving towards, are big other drivers that
09:26we have to bring into the conversation. Because sometimes, you know, when we go speak to a fuel
09:32poor household, they're not wanting to talk about carbon, you know, they're wanting to talk about
09:35how much does my energy bill cost? How am I warmer? And it's about bringing the narrative a lot closer to
09:40people to help bring them with us on the journey. Is that education? Do you think people need some
09:46more education on benefits and how it might not be more expensive to live in a home that's run
09:50sustainably?
09:51So, through the delivery of our home retrofit service, EcoCosy, we talk to homeowners a lot about
09:58the barriers that they face and some of the things that they come up against when they're looking to
10:05conduct home retrofit upgrades. And the main ones are a lack of knowledge and confidence. So people are
10:12unsure what's right for their home or who they can trust or, and they want to just have really clear,
10:21simple, non-biased advice. And that's what we need to do across the industry. We need to make access to
10:28information and services easier and more visible to people. The second one is costs. So we've heard
10:38both Josiah and Becky talk about that as well. So retrofit is a cost challenge if we think about
10:46retrofitting our homes as one big project. However, tackling upgrades in smaller bite-sized chunks means
10:53that projects can become more affordable and then taking advantage of available grants and loans and
11:01personal budgets can be stretched to do more. So we need to educate people around what they can do, but
11:09also how they can do it. So not to think about this as, as one big challenge. However, it is important
11:16to recognize that some technologies are still expensive, you know, sort of as, as the market still
11:23emerges or new technology comes to market, they can be expensive and so can be out of the reach to
11:28many hardworking families. So having access to the available finance. So in Scotland, we're very
11:37fortunate that we have some government grants and loans that, that people can utilize. But also
11:45recognizing not everybody is actually going to be, will not qualify for those. So we need to go a lot
11:52harder in terms of making, um, finance available and more suitable to every home in Scotland, not just
11:59few. Thanks, Sam. So it's about making it more managing for people, I suppose, and perhaps break
12:04it down to chunks where they can afford to do things gradually. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And, and that,
12:09that can happen now. I think it's, but it is that point of educating people as to what's involved in
12:16retrofit, uh, retrofitting a property. It's not always, you know, sort of gutting your home and
12:22starting from scratch. It can be piecemeal. Um, and so with the eco cozy service, that's what we do.
12:28We, we try and break things down for homeowners and give them tailored advice that really picks
12:35the projects or the measures that are going to have most impact for them, but meets their individual
12:42budgets. You're listening to our Sustainable Scotland podcast. This episode is brought to you
12:45in partnership with Changeworks. If you'd like to discuss partnering with the Scotsman for an episode
12:49of Sustainable Scotland, please email podcasts at scotsman.com. And now back to Changeworks.
12:56So looking at the big picture, I suppose, and, um, looking at Changeworks 2025 to 2030 strategic plan,
13:02um, aims to decarbonise 180,000 homes by 2030. Um, tell me a bit more about that, um, Josiah,
13:08starting with you and how that works and how you plan to, how you plan to meet these targets, which
13:14sound ambitious. Yes, it is, uh, 180,000 homes is an ambitious target. Um, you know, they said that
13:20stat earlier that we're currently doing about 13,000 a year and to 180, that should be 36,000 a year,
13:26just kind of giving ourselves a challenge. Um, but it is an ambitious challenge that, that is really,
13:32really, really important because there's a lot riding on people's lives, people's health,
13:37people's wellbeing and, you know, the country's economy if, if we don't achieve that. Um, and
13:44really looking into how and why we think we want to move and almost our behaviour change a little bit
13:49is we think that moving into this next period, when we're in the environment that we live in,
13:55the environment being the economic environment, the political environment, and all of the kind of,
13:59even the global political environment, all the barriers that come
14:03with those challenges, we really think that the next phase of our work, but also what we
14:08want to encourage the rest of Scotland and the rest of the UK to do is do that in partnership with each
14:13other. Um, and that takes us being collaborative to find solutions. Government has been leading this
14:19conversation for a long time and we've all been working along the timeline of government, but I think
14:24the real challenge that we have between now and 2030, 2045, when our net zero target is,
14:29is how we're not necessarily limited by the pace that government operates at. Um, and in order to
14:35move beyond that, it takes us working together. So for, for change works, there's a few ways that
14:41we see doing that. So one is looking at other technologies, other solutions and other business
14:46models. One of the things we're kind of experimenting with, with energy systems catapult. And we did some
14:52experiments in Aberdeen recently with, um, but also looking at how we can bring other financing models. So how can we
14:58bring other financing partners to the table to help support the householders that we support?
15:04Um, and also looking at how we collaborate across the UK, recognizing that Scotland is a part of the
15:09UK. We share a grid. We share a lot of the incentives. We share a lot of the economy. How do we
15:14bring that UK wide partnership to bear on how we do it? And I think we've set ourselves a five year
15:20challenge. It is a big challenge. We don't necessarily have the answer power can hit 180,000 homes.
15:26Um, but we have the ambition momentum and the right people and partners around us, um, to start moving
15:30in that direction. Um, yeah. So just in terms of partnerships, you mentioned partners there,
15:34Josiah, and what partners are you looking to work with as part of your strategy?
15:38And we're really looking for partners who share our ambition more than anything. So we're not
15:44starting out by dictating who the partner should be. Um, but looking for partners who are open to
15:50thinking differently about this challenge, who aren't necessarily held back by the way that we've
15:55done it before and share that vision that we shouldn't simply operate only at the pace that
16:00government gives us, but we have the opportunity and ability to move faster, differently, move in a
16:05different environment, or even a different direction. Um, that's not to say we shouldn't be
16:09working with government. We do a lot of work with the government, but that shouldn't be the only
16:13partner that we should be working with. Um, energy systems catapult is a really good example of
16:18someone who we worked previously with, and we're now in conversation about how we can turn that
16:22partnership, uh, and begin to build upon those things we did together. We're also in particularly
16:29looking for people who are thinking creatively about finance and business models. So they said
16:34earlier on the business models themselves may have to evolve and change for us to reach this
16:39challenge. I think that these are questions that we're introducing to the space and we're trying to
16:43act and ask, sorry, that we're trying to ask proactively with people. And it's really about
16:48looking for partners who are willing to ask those questions in practice with us over the next five
16:53years. You know, that sounds good. And, um, in terms of what comes next of strategies,
16:58fairly new, you launched this year, but what are the next key stages of the strategy?
17:02The next key stages, we're moving towards implementation. So we had a strategy, a strategic plan
17:08over the past three years that we've been working on, which is really about ensuring that Changeworks
17:12had grown, that we've grown our infrastructure, that we have done some stuff in the background.
17:16And really this phase of Changeworks is using those, um, the next phase is using all the work
17:24we've done in the past three years to really catapult us to the next version of what we're doing.
17:30The next phase now is to begin to identify those partners. So continue to deliver what we're
17:34delivering at scale. So delivering all the stuff with, you know, 100,000 householders,
17:39the 13,000 homes we work with, supporting local authorities and housing associations.
17:43But the next phase is to identify those projects and those partners and really start investing in
17:47them and forming these partnerships a bit more deliberately and a bit more strategically.
17:52Well, thanks, Josiah. So what's happening with the strategy, busy, busy time. And, um,
17:56Sam, we've touched on EcoCosie and you mentioned a bit about it. Could you expand on exactly what it is
18:02and what its aims are coming up? Yeah. So EcoCosie is Changeworks innovative home retrofit service.
18:11Um, we created it to support homeowners to make any energy upgrades, um, and make that process more
18:19simple and also have greater impact, um, for homeowners. So helping to reduce their fuel bills
18:25and their carbon emissions. So EcoCosie provides, um, tiered support, giving householders flexible
18:32levels of advice and help depending on their individual needs and budget. So, um, as an example,
18:39we've recently launched my EcoCosie, our free online retrofitting planning tool. So that's ideal,
18:46I would say for early stage homeowners that those that are starting to explore their option. Um,
18:53so it gives a, a very quick and simple summary of energy saving advice, supplying some sort of basic
19:00home information that the homeowner can input themselves. And then as a, as an example of a step
19:07up from that, we also offer our EcoCosie whole home survey and plan. So that's, uh, a more comprehensive
19:15in-person service that we deliver through our expert retrofit advisors and coordinators,
19:22and includes a much more in-depth for home energy survey and provides tailored step-by-step plan
19:29for recommended upgrades. So really give some clear information on providing advice on measures and costs
19:36and how to get the work done. And then once the homeowner is informed of what can be achieved
19:43in their home, um, we can support, um, the, uh, up the installation of projects. So we connect
19:50homeowners with a network of, um, vetted and certified contractors. So this was another barrier really
19:58that homeowners have called out and said, look, we, we, we need to build trust in the supply chain,
20:05as well as those giving advice. So we've taken, um, that work away from the homeowners and done it
20:11ourselves. So we vet contractors, we, um, embed them in our network, and then we provide that connection
20:18between the homeowner and the contractor. Um, and then when installation happens, we provide
20:26essentially a handholding service to homeowners, um, through that process. So that includes, um,
20:32providing quality assurance checks. Um, and by doing that, we're hopefully giving the homeowners,
20:38um, extra peace of mind that the money that they've invested in their home is done so efficiently and
20:45delivers the greatest improvement, um, to the home because we recognize that it, you know, for some
20:51it's going to be quite an investment for them. Sounds good. You can help you from the start to the finish of the process
20:58and it's daunting for them, which I imagine it can be. Yeah. But, and, um, Pecky, um, Josiah's mentioned
21:05a lot about partnerships and obviously you're one of the partners. Can you explain what, um, Energy
21:09System Catapult is doing to help people live more sustainably in their, and decarbonise their homes?
21:16Yeah, so we're looking at a few different things at the moment on home decarbonisation. Um, so one
21:22from the kind of like just transition lens is looking at the kind of interaction between energy,
21:30housing and health, um, and how we can better support low income and vulnerable consumers in
21:35the energy system, particularly those who are currently living in kind of like cold, damp homes.
21:40Um, and so one of the ways we're doing that is through our warm home prescription program, um,
21:47which we've been developing and is aimed at, um, yeah, giving a warm home prescription to people who are
21:53have been identified by the NHS as suffering, um, from the effects of a cold home.
21:58Um, which is one program that we've worked with ChangeWorks on, um, a couple of years ago in one of
22:03our trials where we were looking at how to provide retrofit measures to homes, um, through this referral
22:09process. Um, and yeah, ChangeWorks is one of our key partners on that kind of providing energy advice and
22:15retrofit coordination there, which was a really good partnership. Um, other things that we're looking at
22:22include, um, flexibility for, for households. So we know that as we move to a kind of, um,
22:30the more flexible, smarter energy system that's more driven by renewables, um, the time that energy
22:36is generated is not always going to match up with the times that people want to use energy. And so
22:42we, we need, um, storage of course, like batteries to be able to store energy for the times when it's
22:46needed, but we might also need flexibility. So kind of looking at how, um, we can change the times
22:51that we use energy to better match that, um, generation. Um, and so we're using, um, some
22:57systems to kind of like model the effects of that and, and try and look at, um, different ways that
23:02we could, um, for example, like charge EVs at different times or like use things in the household
23:08or heat pumps and things like more flexibly. Um, and the other thing that Josiah has kind of
23:13mentioned already is we're looking at green finance as well and what are some of the business models
23:17that might help people to decarbonize their homes. Um, so one of the things we're particularly
23:23interested in at the moment is something called energy as a service. Um, so it's looking at how can
23:28we get away from this model of kind of buying products and measures for the home and more towards
23:35buying outcomes and kind of like reducing or eliminating the upfront cost of these things.
23:40And instead having a kind of monthly service charge and hopefully getting additional value
23:46from that. So you actually receive a service where these measures are kind of like properly operated
23:50and maintained, not just installed. And then, you know, you're left to it and good luck to you.
23:54You know, we've been talking about needing new creative business models to be able to unlock this
24:01and starting to think differently about how we both identify the households
24:05that need stuff, but also how we deploy the right thing in the right situation.
24:09And I think the project that we delivered with energy systems catapult as a pilot,
24:14um, a couple of years ago in the Northeast of Scotland was really trying to look at the health
24:19outcomes of retrofit and how we can identify homes and people where they could benefit of them.
24:26So the concept of the project, although it was in a pilot and we're still discussing how we can
24:30kind of try to scale this up elsewhere across Scotland and the UK was, can you work with GPs,
24:36work with GTP surgeries to identify those people with very specific, distinct health needs
24:43that retrofit and energy advice and energy support would help them overcome those, whether they're
24:49things caused by damp or things caused by simply having a cold home. And by using that and identifying
24:54those homes through the health system to be able to go in and use that as a lever to access funding to
25:01retrofit that person's home or deliver other services to them doesn't just have the carbon impact,
25:06but it has the distinct health impact for those householders. I think that's one of my favorite
25:11and most interesting alternative business models of how we look at resources across different parts
25:17of government, different parts of the economy to really drive impacts, not just on carbon,
25:22but in other people's lives. Yeah, 100% agree with that. And I think that's part of the challenge
25:27of kind of really maximising the collaboration between public and private sectors is getting
25:32private sector in particular to recognise the value of those social impacts and include that
25:38in their business case. Sounds good. And if you have any new projects coming up with Changeworks
25:42that you'd like to share? So we've recently just finished a project with Changeworks. We're working
25:49with them on a programme called Inclusive Smart Solutions, which was about developing solutions to
25:58make sure that low-income and vulnerable households are able to participate and benefit from a smarter,
26:04more flexible energy system. And Changeworks was one of the innovators that we supported through that
26:10programme. And yeah, that we, it was pretty successful at kind of like helping to develop this, the Eco Cozy
26:18solution. And we're kind of like hoping to take that forward and keep working together on that at the moment.
26:24It was myself that worked alongside Becky and the Energy Systems Catapult on the project that Becky was just
26:32talking about. And I'd say that that collaboration proved to be very impactful and positive for Changeworks.
26:42So when we're looking to develop new services or new programmes, having the ability across our partnerships
26:51to bring in fresh thinking and deepen sort of our own technical knowledge in these processes can really
26:58help streamline design process and development processes and help us make better and quicker business
27:07decisions. So, you know, one of the things that we have spoken about is pace. How do we get these
27:11things moving? And actually collaboration can be a real benefit to that. So, and as Becky has mentioned,
27:19we're now working on a plan to take that latest project sort of concept that we've been working on
27:25on from paper to real life as a, as a new service that we can bring in to support social landlords
27:34across Scotland.
27:36It sounds good. Thanks. I just wanted to add to that as well. I think that the kind of like success
27:41of that programme was not just from the collaboration between the partners, but also like bringing in the
27:45voice of kind of real consumers in that process. So we had people with like lived experience of, you know,
27:51the various different categories of vulnerability. So social tenants and like people on low income,
27:58people over 65, people living alone, renting, all of these different kinds of categories of
28:03vulnerability. And I think having their voice in that kind of design process was, was really important
28:08and impactful. Yeah. That sounds, that sounds an interesting project with some good results there.
28:13And then we've all mentioned collaboration and partnerships. I mean, what do you think the consequences
28:19are people private and public sector don't fully collaborate and work in partnership in terms of
28:24trying to decarbonise and make living more sustainable? And we'd like to start with Josiah,
28:29would you like to start on that? Yeah, sorry. I think one of the big challenges is we don't
28:34collaborate on this, we leave people behind. We do four, five, six, 45 different routes to trying to
28:41solve this challenge. And where people don't fit into one of those routes, we leave them behind where we
28:46don't get the voice of the householder, where we don't see the people in where they are remembering
28:52that for every home that we're working on, that people live in it, and how and how that voice is
28:56there. And we'll, we'll have a scattershot version of net zero that leaves loads of people behind. And
29:04I think that's my biggest worry is that we put all this work, effort, resource and money into trying to
29:11get to net zero. And we forget a whole bunch of people across Scotland. And that's a challenge
29:21because we already have people that are cold in their homes that are getting ill because of the
29:25quality of their homes, the inability to heat it down and burning lots of fossil fuels to do it.
29:32And without collaborating, we miss that failure to collaborate means failure to deliver, right. So
29:39ultimately, the scale of the channel, a challenge is not the responsibility of anyone's sector. So we need
29:47public sector leadership and funding to be matched by private sector innovation and delivery.
29:54So, like I said earlier, you know, homes are where, um, climate cost of living and health all intersect.
30:04And, um, really sort of collaboration for all of those parts is the only way to unlock the benefits
30:11at scale. Otherwise, you know, we risk slow progress. Um, as just as I said, we leave many households
30:17behind. Um, and, you know, also really to cut out any duplicated effort and wasted resources, because
30:24there is a lot of really good work going on in the sector and lots of, um, existing knowledge and
30:31experience. And if we can pull that together, we can have greater impact a lot faster. Um, and really,
30:39you know, sort of help to bring more households along on a positive journey.
30:44And how receptive is the private sector to collaborating? Have you found that
30:48businesses do want to talk and do want to step in, or of course, it depends on the business
30:53and the sector, but in general, how receptive have you found business?
30:55I think businesses want to step in. We've had lots of conversations. I mean, I'm, I have them every day
31:02with private sector who want to do something, who are looking at their opportunities,
31:08but are hamstrung by the certainty around what is coming, what policy is, what the future is.
31:15And that's like, for me, that's government's role is to give us the certainty to be able to act,
31:21um, to be able to give the resources, to be able to leverage the private sector and give certainty to
31:26the private sector to be able to step in. And I think that's where the government and public sector
31:32challenges to give that opportunity and give that certainty for the private sector to invest,
31:37because the private sector will invest if they know what's coming, if they know where the innovations
31:40are, if they know how they can grow the business to bring more staff into their teams, to grow their
31:45supply chains. Um, but we need to find a way of further enabling that. But I've never, there's,
31:51oh, I say there's very few private sector businesses I've met who just aren't interested in it at all.
31:56They all see it as the future. And as you know, you saw from our polling data, 65% are concerned
32:03that the UK is not investing in this and they do see this as an economic opportunity. They just don't
32:07know how to start. So there's a big role for government there to give that reassurance,
32:12that long-term certainty. I think as well, it's not just about the government reassurance. It's also
32:17about the fact that a lot of the business models in particular are really new and they're not
32:20necessarily proven. And so we need kind of trials and demonstrators to kind of prove the sort of the
32:27revenue streams or like whether these business models work, you know, for the businesses and
32:31the consumers. And we also need public sector to kind of like be ready to step in with consumer
32:37protections where needed as well. But I think even that in a sort of an operational level, even when
32:42we talk about the supply chain, even sort of sole traders want to get involved in this type of work
32:53and want to know how to do it and want access to skills and training and want to know what the level
33:01of business demand is so that they can actually, you know, sort of pivot their businesses at the right
33:08time. So I do think we as an organisation as well in terms of Changeworks have our role to play in that
33:14in terms of being more vocal about what we're doing and what homeowners themselves are saying as well,
33:23so that we can share that willingness that does exist with other organisations that might not come
33:30into contact with it every day. So I think it we need that we need sort of that broader voice all
33:38the way through, right the way down from either sort of or starting at the top from government all
33:44all the way down as well and giving the homeowners the voice to to declare that this is what they're
33:49looking for as well. In terms of pace, we've talked about the need for pace as we draw to close today,
33:54we're getting to the end of our conversation, we've mentioned a lot about pace and the need for
33:57more speed. What do you think can't be done to increase anything like to add in terms of getting
34:01people to just get things done faster to meet our target? Well, I kind of go back to two things that
34:08I've said a couple times on this is certainty. People will grow their businesses. We through one of our
34:17subsidiaries, Warmworks delivers the Warmer Home Scotland scheme, which is a seven-year contract to
34:22decarbonise fuel poor homes of people on benefits or that are aged. As soon as that contract was
34:28announced, all of the suppliers in that supply chain scaled up to meet that demand where we're
34:32delivering five, six hundred. So the certainty, there's a real practical example of how the supply
34:37chain will scale to it. On all the other programmes where their annual renewals or their ad hoc household
34:42by household, suppliers still struggle to scale. So I think certainty is for me, one of the number one
34:50things altogether. And I think that's a really good example to explain that. But two is finance. We
34:55need to find the business models that unlock different types of capital to come and pay for
34:59it. Government was never going to be able to pay for it. All the reports have always shown that we
35:02need billions from the private sector to reach net zero. And what's going to unlock that pace is the
35:08new business models that allow action to happen fast?
35:16I think as well on the point about certainty, we also need certainty for households as well and
35:22confidence. I think there's a bit of a lack of confidence at the moment in the quality of some
35:29of the work that's being done. You hear horror stories about failed cavity wall insulation, things like
35:34that. And we need more robust kind of quality assurance and redress procedures, I think, to
35:40kind of enable the demand for the work to be done. Because if people don't trust that the work's going
35:44to be done well, then they're not going to pay anyone to do it. I think Changeworks model for kind of like
35:51really robust quality assurance seems to be working really well. It's been really successful. And yeah,
35:56I wish we kind of had a similar model in England at the moment for some of our programmes of work.
36:01Yeah, and I'd also say make it easy for people to act as well and make it easier for people to act.
36:08So, you know, we need to remove complexity out of the processes, simplify funding schemes, improve
36:18awareness and make trusted support available. So services like eco-cozy help people move from that
36:25confusion state to clarity. But this needs to be mainstreamed, not niche. And so it's about making
36:34sure that everybody has access to those types of services and support. Thank you very much for
36:41listening to this episode of Sustainable Scotland, produced by The Scotsman. This episode was lived in
36:45partnership with Changeworks. Please listen out for and join more episodes of Sustainable Scotland,
36:49annoying podcast platforms. This was presented by me, Rose McGallagher, and produced by Andrew Mulligan.
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