00:00Hi, everybody. I'm Brittany Lewis, a breaking news reporter here at Forbes.
00:07Joining me now is Texas-based immigration attorney Kate Lincoln-Goldfinch. Kate,
00:12thank you so much for joining me. Thanks for having me on, Brittany.
00:15I want to talk about a story that you and I broke down a couple months ago,
00:18and that is about Kilmar Abrego Garcia. This is a case that some have said shows the Trump
00:23administration's really aggressive approach when it comes to immigration. Critics have called this
00:28an assault on due process. But to start off the conversation, I want to give a rough timeline
00:32of what's happened so far. Earlier this year, Abrego Garcia was mistakenly deported to El Salvador.
00:38He returned to the United States in June, and then he was detained on human smuggling charges,
00:43and now he's currently awaiting a January trial on those charges. On Friday, he was released from
00:49custody in Tennessee, and he returned to Maryland. But this past Monday, he was once again detained
00:54after reporting to ICE in Maryland. And DHS is now saying they could deport him to Uganda,
00:59but a federal judge temporarily blocked his deportation. There have been certainly a lot
01:04of developments in the past couple of days, especially. So provide your perspective here
01:09as an immigration attorney, what do you make of what's happened in recent days?
01:13Yeah, that was an excellent and very quick summary of what has been a long and windy and very emotional
01:18road for Kilmer and his family. I think that the Trump administration made a mistake. And the right
01:25thing to do at the beginning would have been to acknowledge the mistake, bring Kilmer home,
01:31and that would have been the end of the story. But instead, they're unwilling to admit error. And so
01:36they doubled down and tried to convince the American public that Kilmer is dangerous and tried to
01:42bring alien smuggling charges against him and are now threatening to deport him to
01:48Uganda. And it's really heartbreaking. I feel terribly for this young man, for his family,
01:54for his wife, for due process in this country. It's been difficult to watch that someone in his
02:02situation who obtained protection from immigration court that said he would not be deported to El
02:08Salvador, then had that very thing happen to him. And it's almost as if he's continually punished
02:14because of the government's mistake. It's really, really unjust when you dive into the facts.
02:19So let's talk about why exactly Uganda, because back in 2019, an immigration judge said that he
02:26could not be deported back to El Salvador because he faced gang violence there. So he was given the
02:31status of withholding of removal. So in this context, what exactly does that mean? Just that he can't
02:37go to El Salvador and he can go anywhere else in the world?
02:40Technically, yes. Withholding of removal is a lot like asylum. Someone has to prove that they will
02:47suffer persecution in their country if they are removed. It's a tough thing to win. I've had a lot
02:52of these cases before the immigration court, and you have to bring a lot of evidence and get through
02:57cross-examination. It's actually harder to win than asylum, believe it or not. But withholding of
03:03removal is less protective. And it only says that the person can't be removed to the country that they've
03:09sought protection from. So in his case, it's El Salvador. And normally, and historically, that
03:14would be the end of the conversation because we've never really seen people deported to third countries.
03:20But this is a brainchild of the Trump administration, where if they can't deport people to their
03:26countries of origin, they're looking for alternatives to get people out of the United States.
03:31And so they brokered these deals with other nations to accept our deportees. And so that's why
03:38Kilmar could be deported to Uganda, because under withholding of removal, he's only protected against
03:44deportation to El Salvador. And the country of Uganda, presumably, has brokered a deal with the
03:50United States to receive some of our deportees. So it's really important that the judge has blocked
03:55that deportation, because I think he would be on a plane very quickly to Uganda or some other country
04:00if it weren't for that order. What do you think this means really for immigration in this country
04:05that someone can be deported to not their country of origin, they can be deported to some random
04:09country that they have no ties with? I think everybody's watching. I think that the Trump
04:15administration's popularity is at an all time low precisely because of moves like this, separating
04:21families, sending people to third countries, making up charges against them. These are all things that
04:27everybody is watching. They're on every news outlet, and it's not going in Trump's favor.
04:33And that's why we see them do things like attempt to redistrict before the midterms.
04:36I think that the court of public opinion is going to help this play out. And unfortunately for Kilmar,
04:43he is the poster child for the movement, you know, and he suffers through it. But I don't think Americans
04:49are going to stand for this. This is just not who we are as a nation. And we're not going to stand by
04:54and watch someone like him get deported to Uganda. It's absolutely absurd. It's unacceptable.
05:00Do you think that because he is what you're describing as the poster child,
05:04that the Trump administration is going to throw the book at him? Because I want to read something
05:08that Attorney General Pam Bondi said. She said this, quote, he will no longer terrorize our country.
05:13He is currently charged with human smuggling, including children. The guy needs to be in prison.
05:18He doesn't need to be on the streets like all these liberals want him to be.
05:22Does that indicate to you then that this is more than just a fight about immigration? This is also
05:27a political fight then too. I mean, what do you make of that? Do you think that he's going to be
05:32made an example of by this administration? Definitely. They are absolutely making an
05:36example of him. And it's a classic bully abuse scenario. I mean, if you think about someone
05:41who's in an abusive relationship and their partner does something wrong, but rather than admitting it
05:46and apologize, they double down and they ramp up the abuse. That's what the Trump administration
05:51is doing against Kilmar. And that's the thing that we all see clearly. And it's not we're not falling
05:56for it. We know that those alien smuggling charges didn't contain evidence. We know that they are
06:02just doubling down to prove a point because they don't want to just admit that they were wrong.
06:07So, I mean, it's it's not going well for them in the court of public opinion. It just isn't.
06:11And then Kilmar Obrego Garcia's attorney said this yesterday. We're going to ask for an interim
06:17order that he not be deported pending his due process rights to contest deportation to any
06:22particular country. And as we know, the federal judge did block his deportation temporarily.
06:28But how strong do you think his case and his argument on due process is?
06:34Well, I mean, I think that the unfortunate thing is that we have lower federal courts and then we have
06:41courts of appeals and we have the Supreme Court and we have a pretty unpredictable judiciary.
06:47So I think this is the type of matter that could be appealed. And at some point, a deportation to a
06:53third country could be allowed. And then we'll have to see what happens. I mean, if he gets deported to
06:58Uganda and disappears within their system, that's going to be a pretty big headline. And I don't think
07:03people will forget it. I want to get back to the third country removal because that's seemingly
07:08raising some alarm bells for people. The Trump administration gave Obrego Garcia a deal to
07:14deport him to Costa Rica if he pleaded guilty to the human smuggling charges. And then he served
07:19whatever sentence that the courts gave him. He's not pleading guilty. And now the Trump
07:23administration floated that Uganda deportation. And Obrego Garcia's attorney said that the Trump
07:29administration is using the immigration system and, quote, which country someone is going to be
07:34deported to to try to weaponize and gain leverage in a criminal prosecution. And then he calls that
07:40flatly unconstitutional. What do you make of that? I mean, I agree. You know, I mean, so they're trying to
07:46bring these criminal charges against him. But taking that aside, if you think about just the idea of
07:51withholding of removal, someone being protected against removal to their country of origin, but they
07:56could go to another country. Removing someone to another country, let's say they sent him to Mexico,
08:01what that might look like in a just society is that they bring him to Mexico. And he is allowed
08:07to be free there and establish a life or go to some other country and talk to his family. And he has
08:13his liberty and his freedom. It's not what we're seeing in these third country removals with the
08:18Trump administration, where people like Venezuelans are being sent into torture prisons in El Salvador,
08:23never to speak to their family. I mean, this is not what we're talking about when we say
08:29withholding of removal allows removal to other countries, not indefinite detention and disappearance
08:34into torture camps. That's not what it means. I'm curious what you're looking out for next,
08:40specifically as an immigration attorney, because that federal judge, like we've talked about
08:44on Monday, blocked his deportation temporarily until the court hears his legal challenge fighting
08:50his deportation. So what specifically are you looking out for there?
08:53We're watching for appeals to make sure that that stop on his removal to Uganda sticks and waiting to
09:02see how the criminal charges go forward. I mean, at some point, if he's not removed,
09:09he should be released from custody. But all of this is in the hands of the court system. And like I said,
09:16I mean, you know, the court systems right now are not a guarantee. It's, it's pretty hit or miss these
09:23days in the judiciary and in Congress. And he was released on Friday. He was detained again on
09:30Monday. Do you think there is a world in America right now where he's not deported? Or do you think
09:36that's really not an option? And he's just going to be deported anywhere that's not El Salvador?
09:43I think I could foresee a world in which he would agree to leave and go to another country if he were
09:51not detained. If I were him or his lawyers, that's what I would be arguing for. Let me leave this
09:56country, but not in a jail cell. So maybe they'll work something else like that out. I don't know.
10:03I don't represent him. I wish the best for him and his legal team. I can only imagine how much stress
10:09and pressure they are under trying to navigate all of this. I mean, it's this entire spotlight of
10:14the cruelty of the Trump administration just shined on this one case is really, it's a lot to take in.
10:21And I really feel for this man. I feel for him and his wife and his family. It's so unfair.
10:26And overall, once again, from the perspective of an immigration attorney, what do you think this
10:30whole conversation, this whole legal fight means for due process?
10:35Well, what I would say is this case doesn't speak for due process in general. I mean, due process or the
10:45lack of it is at play everywhere you look in immigration policy and enforcement and the way
10:50that cases are being handled and the way that courthouse attentions are happening and the way
10:54that families are being separated and the way that people like Kilmar are being handled. So due process
10:59is a bigger conversation. The actual case of Kilmar Abrego-Garcia is about, at this point,
11:05it's about a third country removal for someone who has withholding of removal. That's ultimately
11:11what this case is about. But we're watching the behavior and the willingness on the part of the
11:16attorney general and the Trump administration to just violate traditional norms, human rights,
11:23due process, constitutional protections, and just basic concepts of humanity. That's
11:29what we're witnessing in this case. And do you think the Trump administration is using this case
11:36as a deterrent, saying anyone trying to come to America, don't come here because you could get sent
11:43somewhere else completely? Do you think that there's an element of deterrence, attempted deterrence
11:49at play, but that's not really on their mind right now, deterring. They might be actually hoping that
11:55more people self-deport. And I can tell you that that is happening. People I talk to every day,
12:01good, hardworking immigrants who don't have criminal history, who we need here in this economy,
12:06are choosing to leave because they don't want to live like this. They don't want to live under siege.
12:11And I can tell you, I've talked to so many people who come from authoritarian regimes
12:15in their home countries, and they've watched this pattern play out before. And they see it happening
12:21here in the United States. And these people say to me, I'm not going to stay here and watch it in
12:25the United States either. And I'm not going to be under siege like this. And I'm leaving. And we're
12:28starting to see the results of that in our economy. And hopefully it'll become so clear to everybody by
12:35the time the midterms happen, that a lot of this behavior by the Trump administration will get stopped
12:40in its tracks. And I think with politics, a lot of the time, immigration is painted in a black and
12:46white issue. And that's really not the case. There's so much gray area when it comes to
12:50immigration. This was a top issue facing voters in 2024. As someone who is an immigration attorney,
12:56who represents these cases, who has these conversations, what do you think is missing
13:01really from the national dialogue when it comes to immigration?
13:04I think that the missing piece began actually during the Biden administration. During the Biden
13:11administration, the conservative side was so loud. It was such a loud and regular drumbeat
13:18claiming that immigrants were invading, that they were trafficking children, they were trafficking
13:24drugs, they were raping girls. You know, just that rhetoric was so routine and regular. And the
13:31Biden administration and Democrats, frankly, didn't really talk as loudly about the reality of what was
13:38going on the border. We didn't have open border. Immigrants are great for this country. All of those
13:43talking points went by the wayside. And so here we are living in this world where a bunch of people
13:49have begun to believe the lies and the anti-immigrant rhetoric that Trump displays. And now we're in a
13:56situation of imbalance. But what can help is cases like Kilmars, other cases that reach the media,
14:04viral videos that go out and people start to see, wait a minute, good people are being impacted by this.
14:09People I love. Families are being separated. Construction is down in my area. It's hard to
14:14find landscapers. You know, my schools are closing down. I'm starting to see that maybe this is all
14:22wrong. You know, and I think that we're starting to see that shift a little bit in the polls and where
14:27we're seeing the Trump administration and his approval rating because they've gone so hard and so
14:33aggressive against immigrants that, you know, it's obvious unless, you know, you're just not paying
14:39attention whatsoever. You can see that this is not actually helping our country, even if you're
14:43unmoved by the humanitarian angle. Kate, I appreciate your update on this case. And as we
14:49see more developments come out, I hope you can come back on and break them down with me. Kate Lincoln
14:54Goldfinch, thank you so much for joining me. You're welcome back anytime. Thanks, Brittany.
15:13Bye-bye.
15:13Bye-bye.
15:14Bye-bye.
15:14Bye-bye.
15:16Bye.
15:18Bye-bye.
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