00:00Thank you, Senator.
00:03I've got some questions that are a little higher elevation, so to speak,
00:13but do you believe the Constitution legally permits one racial group
00:22to enjoy representation than other racial groups?
00:30I think, no, of course not.
00:37I mean, equal justice, all our laws are to apply equally to every one in the United States.
00:46Okay, so your answer is you do not believe the Constitution legally permits one racial group
00:53to enjoy more representation than other racial groups.
00:58You do not believe that?
01:01What equal protection is all about, if I understand your question, yes.
01:05Okay, so you mentioned the equal protection.
01:07Do you mean the equal protection clause?
01:10Yes.
01:11Okay.
01:11So, can you explain what, in the Constitution, other than the equal protection clause,
01:25would prohibit one racial group from enjoying more representation than any other racial group?
01:32Senator, I really just don't want to get into a discussion at that level.
01:42I will tell you that everyone under our Constitution, the intent is that everyone be treated equally under the law.
01:52That's what equal justice, that's what equal rights is all about.
01:55There are always failures in that, but I think generally as a nation, we try to correct those failures.
02:02Okay, so I just want to reiterate that you believe the equal protection clause is there
02:06to ensure that no racial group enjoys more greater representation than any other.
02:13The equal protection clause allows for that.
02:14I believe that everyone should be treated equally under the law.
02:17I believe that's what the Constitution requires.
02:22Right.
02:22Okay, thank you for that.
02:24Senator, you said that your goal was to provide a legal map.
02:28Is that accurate?
02:29Yes.
02:30And as you know, our Constitution provides for equal protections that you had just mentioned.
02:37Can you elaborate on how this map legally complies with the Equal Protection Clause from our Constitution?
02:50So the most accurate answer I can give you is that I'm not a redistricting attorney.
02:55I'm not a constitutional attorney.
02:57But I hired very, very good redistricting attorneys with a broad background in constitutional law.
03:06And I asked them to review this map and tell me if in any way violated the 14th Amendment,
03:14any aspect of the Constitution, the VRA, anything.
03:18And they have come back and told me unequivocally that this does not violate any applicable law.
03:31Did they cite any examples?
03:34Well, I know that they ran a jingles analysis and other reviews,
03:39as are typically done in the redistricting process.
03:45Did they refer to the Equal Protection Clause?
03:48Yes, they have referred to the 14th Amendment.
03:52Can you explain how so?
03:53Just in saying that it did not violate the 14th Amendment.
03:56I'm sorry, I can...
03:57Just in saying that it was not a violation of the 14th Amendment,
04:00the Voting Rights Act, or any other applicable law.
04:04Did they go into detail how it doesn't?
04:07No, and again, I didn't want to get in myself into reviewing racial data.
04:11And so what I asked them to do is bring me their conclusions of law.
04:14I also am not, I don't have the expertise to analyze the statistical parts of a review,
04:25such as jingles where you're doing a regression analysis or, you know,
04:29all the different things that are looked at.
04:31That's just not my area of expertise.
04:33So I just asked them to bring me their conclusions.
04:35You asked them to bring their expertise?
04:41Yes.
04:42And what was their expertise?
04:43What did they say?
04:44They said that this, that H.P. 4 did not violate any applicable law,
04:52that it complied with the VRA and the Constitution.
04:55Did they explain how it complied with the VRA?
05:03Only that it did comply in all aspects of the VRA.
05:08Did you ask how it complied with the VRA?
05:14Well, I don't think I'd answer that.
05:20I asked them to do a very, very detailed analysis.
05:31And I asked them if their review had in any way shown that it violated the Voting Rights Act.
05:38And they have assured me that it does not.
05:40I asked these questions.
05:46When I say that, obviously, that's with regard to race, color, minority, language group,
05:51all the things that the VRA is intended to protect.
05:55Okay.
05:56Because today blacks and Hispanics in Texas make up 51% of the population,
06:04while white Texans make up 39%.
06:07Would you agree with those demographics?
06:08That sounds about right.
06:10Okay.
06:10If you agree with those demographics,
06:12can you explain how a map that results in 70% of congressional districts being majority white
06:18reflect that reality?
06:22Well, with regard to this map, we don't know who's going to be elected.
06:25Whether they're going to be Anglo, Black, Hispanic, Asian, we don't know.
06:30But I believe people are going to have the opportunity to vote for the candidates
06:34that they think will best represent their interests.
06:38We don't know, but you drew maps based on current demographics?
06:44I drew maps based on historic voting, Republican, Democrat voting patterns.
06:51Regardless of race?
06:52Actually, I didn't draw the map, but I believe that's what this map reflects.
06:57Not looking at race?
07:01Not voting on race.
07:03Okay.
07:0645 years ago, Anglos were 66% of Texas population.
07:13Today, Anglos make up 39.8% of population.
07:19And despite that massive demographic shift, why does this map reflect the same demographics
07:28from half a century ago?
07:29Well, I think your statement would presume that Hispanics are not voting for Republicans.
07:39And I don't think that's the case.
07:42I think Hispanics are.
07:45I think the fact that we have Hispanic members on this body.
07:49I think that Republicans are voting, let me say this correctly, I think your statement assumes
07:57that Hispanics will not vote for Republicans, and I just don't think that's accurate.
08:02Would you assume that Hispanics are trending to vote more Republican than Democratic?
08:07You know, I haven't really analyzed that at anything other than an anecdotal level.
08:12But I just believe that this map is going to create at least five more competitive districts.
08:22I don't know whether someone Hispanic or Anglo or African American will be elected to those
08:28or Asian.
08:29I don't know.
08:30And I don't know who will run for them.
08:31But I know when you look at Republican versus Democrat, those maps are, those districts,
08:36those five will lean more Republican.
08:39But they're going to be very competitive districts.
08:41There's not a walkthrough, a guarantee by any measure.
08:44You just mentioned that this map improves Republican performance.
08:49Isn't it true that the effect of this map, even if not intentional, does dilute Hispanic vote
08:57and black voting power?
08:59I haven't seen any data suggesting that.
09:02No?
09:03Okay.
09:03So you argue that these maps are race neutral, but haven't conservative federal courts already
09:12struck down similar supposed race neutral maps in states like Louisiana, in Alabama, Mississippi,
09:25for doing exactly what House Bill 4 does here because of the effect?
09:29I'm not aware of that.
09:32You're not aware of that.
09:34Okay.
09:35Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
09:37Those are all my questions.
09:47Yes.
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