00:00Welcome back, it's ten past one and in an exclusive interview with our political editor Christopher Hope,
00:06the Reform UK leader, Nigel Farage, has claimed that Remainers could never be truly patriotic.
00:11I never understood how you could be patriotic and at the same time be happy to hand away chunks of self-control
00:20to a bunch of old men who you can't vote for in Brussels. I could never understand it.
00:25Let's put it this way, a lot of people who were believers in the European project,
00:33and it was never more than 20% of the population, but a lot of it was in Westminster in the political class,
00:38a lot of those who believed in the European Union, believed in global governance,
00:44didn't really believe in us as a country and by definition I think they were unpatriotic.
00:51So, are Remainers less patriotic than Brexiteers?
00:57Well, let's speak to the political commentator Andy Twelves on this.
01:02Andy, what did you make of what Nigel Farage had to say to our political editor?
01:06Good afternoon, Tom. Good afternoon, Miriam. Thanks for having me.
01:09I think it's just ridiculous. The referendum was ten years ago now.
01:15Almost an entire generation are able to vote now that weren't able to vote in 2016.
01:20And for him to keep going on about it, it's just a bit odd.
01:23But it's also quite dangerous to suggest that if you agree with global governance,
01:28if you agree with international treaties or international organisations,
01:31then for some reason you're unpatriotic. It just doesn't really make sense.
01:36I'm not sure why it's dangerous. I mean, I can understand why you disagree,
01:40but surely it's a perfectly legitimate point of political debate.
01:44Not really. I think certainly when he's got people like Charlie Mullins or Liz Truss,
01:49both quite prominent Remainers now as close allies.
01:53I think Liz Truss was in conversation with his party last week.
01:55Charlie Mullins is probably a candidate at the next election for reform
01:59when he's got these kind of arch Remainers in his ranks.
02:01I mean, what's he doing? Is this another Rupert Lowe situation?
02:04Is there more division going to be created in the Reform UK party?
02:08It's just hypocritical. If he's got such senior Remainers advising him
02:12and working with him, are they unpatriotic?
02:14I think he'd probably deny that these people are advising him, let's say.
02:20But I want to ask, would you think that a Canadian who supported the Trump proposal
02:27to make Canada America's 51st state, would that Canadian be less patriotic
02:34than a Canadian who wanted Canada to remain an independent country?
02:39Yes. Probably, yes.
02:41Why is it different when it comes to Britain and Europe?
02:44I think there's a difference between being a member of a group of states
02:49and not having your sovereignty and having your sovereignty.
02:52But isn't the European Union a group of member states?
02:55We still have our own sovereignty, realistically.
02:58Well, no, you pool your sovereignty in the European Union.
03:00As American states pool their sovereignty,
03:03they can still make decisions over education policy,
03:05they can make decisions over lots of local government issues,
03:08but they, on defence matters, on matters of federal competence,
03:12that's given to Washington, D.C.
03:14And in exactly the same way, the European Union, yes, has subsidiarity.
03:18Yes, there are elements of national, of state competence,
03:21but there's also elements of a supranational competence
03:24where EU law overrides domestic law.
03:27Is it not exactly the same thing?
03:30I don't think it's exactly the same thing at all.
03:33I mean, for one, we have a completely separate financial system.
03:36Every single state in the US goes by the same currency,
03:39has the exact same value.
03:41But, I mean, the EU is a political and economic union.
03:45It's not a sovereign nation at all.
03:48They have a shared institution, but it's not a country.
03:51It's quite different, Tom.
03:52Up until the current constitution in the United States,
03:56the United States ran under the Articles of Confederation,
04:00which was exactly like the European Union.
04:02Then it had its Hamiltonian federalist moment,
04:05which the EU, all the EU leaders say they want to have happen.
04:08They want to have the euro to be the currency of the whole organisation.
04:11The Hamiltonian moment, as Guy Verhofstadt keeps talking about.
04:14I mean, clearly, it's not hard to see how the European project is built to be a competitor to the United States
04:23on the same road track to federalism as the United States.
04:28Sure. I mean, you know, there are significant differences.
04:32I mean, even, you know, the military, foreign policy, these are all done, you know, as independent nations.
04:38There's no EU army.
04:39There's no EU foreign policy.
04:41National interest.
04:41I mean, yeah, come on, Tom.
04:43This has been a thing since, you know, 2010.
04:45This rumour of the EU army has been kind of been knocking about.
04:48I still don't see one quite yet.
04:50But I think it's just silly to suggest that the 17 million people that voted,
04:5516 million people that voted Remain in 2016 are any less patriotic than the 17 million that voted Leave.
05:03And even then, it was 10 years ago.
05:04It was 10 years ago.
05:05Do you know what I mean?
05:05Come on, we need to move on from this now.
05:08I think he's living in the past.
05:09He needs to move on.
05:10Not even nine.
05:11Remember it well.
05:12Andy, thank you so much for coming on.
05:15Andy Twelves there.
05:16I mean, you can absolutely disagree with Nigel Farage, but what he's saying isn't dangerous.
05:22It's a very absurd way of putting it.
05:24It's strange, isn't it?
05:25It's often if someone on the right says something, that's considered to be dangerous.
05:30Whereas if someone on the left, that's legitimate debate.
05:32Yes.
05:33Interesting.
05:34Well, words are violent.
05:36Don't forget that, Tom.
05:37Anyway.
05:38Well, Energy Secretary Ed Miliband is plotting to create a new North.
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