The Maha Kumbh 2025 in Prayagraj concluded on Mahashivratri with over 65 crore devotees attending the six-week-long religious congregation so far.
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00:00Alright, let us take you now directly to Prayagraj as well as Varanasi where today viewers the
00:09largest gathering in the world culminates on the day of Mahashivratri.
00:14It is the final holy dip at the Mahakumbh as well and after that that city within a
00:19city is going to dismantle itself only to be assembled again 12 years from now where
00:25the Mahakumbh comes into question.
00:27I want to take you through of some of the firsts that have taken place.
00:31We will give you the graph in terms of the numbers that have attended the Mahakumbh.
00:36Let's take you through that.
00:38Now this is stunning viewers.
00:40Over the years where every Mahakumbh is concerned from the last and I am just looking at the
00:45last Mahakumbh and I remember I covered that at Trimbakeshwar in 2013.
00:50It was 12 crore people had attended the Trimbakeshwar Mahakumbh.
00:55Look at that staggering number on your television screen over 65 crores that have attended the
01:02Mahakumbh this time.
01:03Just sheer numbers is astounding.
01:05Let me get you the economics of it all.
01:08Now Kumbh 2013 the government expenditure and I am you know comparing it to the last
01:13Kumbh again was 1017 crores.
01:17The revenue generated at that time was 12,000 crores.
01:20Kumbh 2019 which was an Ardh Kumbh the government expenditure was 2,112 crores.
01:27Revenue generated 1.2 lakh crores.
01:30Let's now completely come down to the 2025 Mahakumbh at Prayagraj.
01:35The expected we are giving you a ballpark figure and it's definitely going to rise
01:40is 1017 crores.
01:42This will rise when a actual turnover takes place but look at the revenue earned 2 lakh
01:47crores up to now because in all probability that number could also rise.
01:52If you're asking us these are all government numbers but you know it couldn't be really
01:57you know very far away from that figure when it comes down to the footfall or even the
02:02economy that was generated where the Mahakumbh was concerned.
02:07I want to cut across right now to Piyush Mishra who's joining us from Varanasi because a lot
02:12of the crowds who have gone to the Mahakumbh actually you know go to Varanasi and that
02:19is where they end their spiritual journey or their journey of faith at least in the
02:24trajectory of these holy dates but first up Santosh Sharma joining us from Prayagraj.
02:29Santosh it's all coming together today.
02:32The biggest leveler where the largest gathering of mankind coming in closing today.
02:40Now from today are we going to see everything you know where the city which had come together
02:46within the city of Prayagraj being dismantled or it's going to be another couple of days
02:51because the rush of people is quite a bit.
02:53It will take a couple of days for the for the to decrease or we can say the devotees
03:03will still continue to come to the Prayagraj because some of the devotees are on their
03:08way for taking a holy dip in Sangam and Triveni area and why I'm saying you can see the visuals
03:15the flow of the crowd that is coming and that is going back and within 24 hours we can say
03:23that more than 90 trains are going to come in Prayagraj and 200 special trains are deployed
03:32for taking all the devotees to their homes.
03:36So this is the large amount of the large number of a crowd that is coming and going
03:42out of the Prayagraj and this will take a couple of days.
03:46Although today is the last day or we can say the last day of Mahakumbh and tomorrow the
03:51CM of Uttar Pradesh Yogi Adityanath will also will participate in a together get together
03:59with the police personnel and the sanitation worker those who have participated in this
04:04whole Kumbh and due to which this sanitation work the law and order has been was done.
04:12That's the reason tomorrow the CM Yogi Adityanath will come and very quickly get us some reactions
04:18right behind you and I'll cut across to Piyush and then back to our guests in the studio.
04:23Go to the people behind you very eager to talk.
04:26Yeah, I'm taking the reactions.
05:26Okay, all right, thank you, thank you so much for joining us.
05:52I'm going to come right back to you.
05:54The fact is viewers one must look at it.
05:56There have been many, many controversies and there have been many deaths as well.
05:59But when you look at it on a larger scale, the culmination of the Mahakumbh is the coming
06:04together.
06:05It has to be the biggest leveler, caste, class, identity all merge into one when it comes
06:10down to that riverbed there.
06:12I want to cut across to Piyush.
06:14Piyush, a lot of the crowd surge from Prayagraj goes onwards to Banaras at the Kashi Vishwanath
06:22temple and today I'm sure it's ringing with the chants of Har Har Mahadev.
06:31Well, absolutely, Preeti.
06:32It's not only the culmination of Mahakumbh, but also the celebrations of Mahashivratri
06:37those are taking place across the country.
06:39In fact, the people after taking holy dip in Prayagraj have come to Varanasi to seek
06:44the blessings of Lord Mahashivratri.
06:46Right behind me you can also see the preparations those have been done here by the administration
06:51that is the main entry gate, gate number four of Kashi Vishwanath Dham and you can see how
06:56it has been decorated using different kinds of lights by the administration.
07:01People have come here from different parts of the country.
07:04Let me try to get in a word from them and understand the sentiments of those are now
07:07going here.
07:08You can see how there is a sea of people which is right in front of gate number four and
07:13they want to seek one darshan of Lord Mahashiv.
07:21I have come from Gorakhpur.
07:51I have come from Hyderabad.
08:19So you can see how excited people are and you know they are standing in queues since
08:23morning but they have not got the opportunity to seek the blessings.
08:31Alright, chants of Har Har Mahadev ringing out at Varanasi as well viewers because today
08:37the Mahakumbh culminates on the day of Mahashivratri.
08:40You know the Kumbh, what is really unique about the Kumbh is the fact that there is
08:44no God.
08:45The river is actually the God where Kumbh is concerned and the river stands testimony
08:49on where the Kumbh takes place on which the banks of which river.
08:53This time the river Ganga and look at the Sangam, visuals of the Sangam there, astounding.
08:58Alright, but let us now move on because there have been a lot of other questions that have
09:01been posed as well when it came down to the Kumbh, controversies of the Kumbh, what we
09:06really got out where the Kumbh was concerned.
09:09It has generated at least for a brief while a parallel economy in Prayagraj where the
09:13parallel city which was erected.
09:15So, the questions that we ask this evening where the Mahakumbh was concerned, never witnessed
09:21before celebrations of India's spiritual heritage.
09:25Have we seen something, an event like this before, a religious event like this before?
09:32The other question that needs to be posed has the Mahakumbh put India on the global
09:36stage as the faith capital of the world or what some feel, excessive commercialization,
09:43VVIP culture, clickbait packaging, ruining the essence of the Mahakumbh.
09:50When it comes down to politics, has the Bharatiya Janata Party successfully leveraged the Mahakumbh
09:56when it comes in for political gain?
09:59And somewhere down the line did the opposition, the opposition did nothing wrong in raising
10:04the mismanagement or the administrative failure but somewhere did the opposition fail to differentiate
10:12the festival of Kumbh from administrative failure where they seem to conflate the both.
10:18Has the Mahakumbh firmly established BJP as a party of Hindus?
10:22Was the government clearly ill-equipped to handle the large number of visitors that came
10:29calling at the back of the call of the Kumbh?
10:32Let's cut across to our guest this evening, Nick Booker, originally from the UK, took
10:37six Sangam Snans at the Kumbh and writing a book on Prayagraj.
10:41Nick, can I safely call you our resident Indophile?
10:44Certainly can.
10:45Namaskar, PTT.
10:46Namaskar, Nick.
10:47And joining me as well is Karan Verma, political analyst, Ashutosh, political analyst, Ghanshyam
10:54Tiwari, spokesperson, Samajwadi Party, Radhika Khera, national spokesperson, BJP, Poojathra
10:59Party, national spokesperson, Congress.
11:01Before I get down to the politics of it all, let me just quickly cut across to Nick.
11:04Nick, first up, how was your experience?
11:06How many?
11:07So how many Snans did I say?
11:08Six.
11:09Six.
11:10Six Snans.
11:11Six Sangam Snans.
11:12Six Sangam Snans.
11:13VVIP Snans or the one with the public Snans?
11:17With the public.
11:18I mean, I think anyone who's fortunate enough to take a boat to the Sangam is a VIP in a
11:23sense.
11:24But I also walked on the Sangam Nose with millions of people on several of those occasions.
11:28So I've done it from different directions.
11:30So I'm very, very, very lucky.
11:31What do you come back with?
11:33Gratitude.
11:34Just immense gratitude.
11:36It was the most extraordinary months of my life.
11:39It was one series of extraordinary experiences after another.
11:43And the most important ones are the fact that, as you rightly said, at its purest level,
11:51this is taking a bath, taking a Snan in two or three sacred rivers coming together as
11:59one, underneath the sun, with the moon.
12:02So whether it's the Posh Purnima, whether it was Makka Sankranti, whether it was the
12:07Amavasya, you're aware of celestial cycles.
12:12You're aware of rivers that give life.
12:14You're aware of the sun that gives us light and life.
12:16It is extraordinarily powerful from a nature and that perspective.
12:21But the people that we were meeting on each of these occasions and the ability to bring
12:26my wife and my nine-year-old daughter to the Sangam, to the Triveni Sangam, to bathe
12:31in those waters is something that, obviously, we will never forget as a family.
12:35You know, one quick question I'll ask you before we cut across to our other guests is,
12:39Nick, you know, I'm sure you followed Indian culture, you know, spirituality in the country
12:45for many, many years.
12:46You've been, you know, this is your first Mahakum, but you've been to the other kums
12:49before.
12:50So the question that I ask you is, how was this kum different?
12:53Was it different at all?
12:55What's the messaging that's going up?
12:56You know, you're from the UK.
12:59It's so hard to describe the differences.
13:01The scale, obviously, is beyond anything.
13:05I think what's really interesting about this Kumbh Mela is that this has been the least
13:10mediated Kumbh Mela.
13:12So we've had more people, hundreds of millions of people, who have a first-hand personal
13:16experience of going to Prayagraj as a Tirthyachari, visiting, taking a snan at the Sangam and
13:23returning with their real lived experience.
13:26And we also have, thanks to technology, I was live on 5G actually in the Sangam on Instagram
13:32several times.
13:33So thanks to the technology, we were able to FaceTime to WhatsApp video call to record
13:39videos to post them on social media.
13:41So unlike previous Kumbh Melas, which have either been mediated by the media, like yourself,
13:48or by writers, BBC correspondents, Chinese travellers, if we go back to the 7th century
13:53Shanzang, inscriptions of Samudra Gupta or Ashoka on pillars, or references to the Margi
14:00Melas.
14:01All of these references have been mediated, but this time, it is people themselves coming
14:07back all over India, all over the world, with stories of the Sangam and of their experience
14:11at Prayagraj.
14:12Stay with me, Nick.
14:13Let me just open up the debate.
14:15Ashutosh, let me come to you on some of the big questions that, you know, we've been posing
14:18here.
14:19You know, there are two ways of looking at the Mahakumbh, and where we get in the politics
14:23of it all, Ashutosh, in it, somewhere down the line, do you think that political parties,
14:29especially the opposition, conflated both the Mahakumbh with administrative failure?
14:35They should have made that distinction.
14:37Because when you're talking to people who are coming there and they're coming there
14:40in droves, you know, the number is 64 crores.
14:42That's practically half of the Hindu population.
14:45Even if it's not 64 and closer to that, we're talking about a sizable population.
14:50And all of them coming in, seem to be in ecstasy.
14:54See, Preeti, I'm privileged in that sense, because I had lived longer in Allahabad.
15:01So I had seen Kumbh, how this congregation has happened on such occasion.
15:08But unfortunate part is that today, that any religious function or any religious thing
15:15suddenly becomes very political.
15:17And fortunately or unfortunately, we have forgotten to make a distinction between the
15:21politics and the religion, or the spirituality and the politics around it.
15:28I will blame not only opposition, but also the government.
15:31The government has also tried to politicize and tried to get the mileage out of it.
15:35And the kind of arrangement was then?
15:38Yes, certainly the good arrangements were made.
15:40But then the government also has to take the responsibility for this, for the stampede
15:44and for the mismanagement.
15:46It cannot just happen that you take the responsibility for the for the good things done.
15:49But anything bad happens, then you just disown it or blame only to the opposition.
15:53Opposition has also been, has to be a bit more sensitive about the feelings of the people.
15:58You just can't pass any comment here and there.
16:01And then you can ridicule somebody.
16:03I don't approve of that.
16:04But the fact of the matter is that whether it is opposition or the government, both are
16:09equally to be blamed.
16:10If the Yogi government wanted to package it as something which has never happened.
16:15I had been, I had lived in Allahabad, I know this, that the Kumbh has always been celebrated
16:22and a large number of people had always come over there.
16:26But unfortunately, those were the days when social media was not there.
16:31The media was not so open.
16:32So obviously it couldn't be packaged that way or the government at that point of time
16:35never tried to package it or to promote themselves or to their political parties.
16:39That the sad part of it.
16:40I think we we have to learn to distinguish between the spirituality and the politics
16:45around it.
16:46All right.
16:47Karan Verma, you know, now it does seem the Kumbh was appropriated by the Bharatiya Janata
16:53Party and the opposition did itself no favors by using language, which one would think,
16:59you know, made sense because they were raising issues of mismanagement, of administrative
17:03failure and you could see that the government really was ill-equipped to handle the kind
17:08of crowds, you know, that actually came into the Kumbh.
17:11But do you see the BJP, because you know, you're living in the world of politics and
17:16they've been able to leverage maximum mileage of this religious event.
17:21So Preeti, at the outset, let's for a minute understand this, that it is the biggest ever
17:26gathering.
17:27You know, when Mahatma Gandhi said that we've had big gatherings, never have we seen something
17:30like this, 65 crore people and the kind of temple economy, the temple economy, the spiritual
17:36economy that we are seeing, it's a new model today, right at the front, where BJP says
17:40vikas bhi, virasat bhi and it's a testament to that.
17:43The kind of visitors today we have in Ayodhya, in Varanasi and now in the Mahakumbh speaks
17:48volumes about that.
17:49When the opposition says Mrityu Kumbh, as Mamata Banerjee said or as Lalu Prasad Yadav
17:54said, Kumbh is useless.
17:55It is not raising questions on the administration.
17:58If you want to raise questions of the administration, that's most welcome.
18:01Accountability must be welcome.
18:03But when you cast aspersions on an entire parampara and say it is useless or when Samajwadi
18:08Party uses words like chhapri, yeh chhapri the jo wahan pe naha rahe the, that is derisive.
18:14That is where you are hurting sentiments.
18:16So you're not doing anyone good.
18:17And BJP, the fact is that if they've been able to, if the government, UP government
18:21has been able to pull this off, it is an achievement.
18:25Of course, there could be aberrations.
18:26There could be certain things which didn't go the right way.
18:29And that's unfortunate.
18:30There, the accountability needs to be fixed.
18:32But let's understand...
18:33But the accountability was not fixed, Karan Verma.
18:35That's the, I think that was one of the main contentions of the opposition.
18:39Allow me to open up the debate.
18:40I'll come right back to you because you raised a point of the opposition and I just want
18:44to pull out some images of the opposition did in fact go and take a dip at the Mahakumbh.
18:50And there were many, many leaders across political parties where the opposition was
18:54concerned and they did take that dip.
18:57Let's play those visuals out and I'm going to bring in Ghanshyam Tiwari because let's
19:01look at those visuals very quickly.
19:03Okay, I, we're going to play them out and just, all right, okay, I'm going to play those
19:09visuals out in just about 10 seconds, but Ghanshyam Tiwari, I want to, you know, pull
19:13you into this conversation with what, you know, the language that has been used, kum
19:18phaltu hai mrityu kum, you know, the intention might be to bring up the lapses in terms of
19:24administration, but it seemed to be an attack on the festival itself, on the faith, you
19:30know, which the crores of Hindus ride on.
19:34Do you think that was the mistake?
19:36The opposition got its language incorrect.
19:38Good evening, Preeti, to you, my fellow co-panelists and the viewers, and I wish everyone the blessings
19:45of Lord Shiva on Mahashivratri.
19:48There are three things that are important.
19:50One, kum is a lived experience, as one of your guests mentioned, and that lived experience
19:54is a civilizational journey, it's our faith.
19:57BJP has tried to appropriate the faith, whether it is Ram temple or whether it is kum, and
20:02it has not worked out for them, at least in 2024.
20:06As far as opposition is concerned, when a party showers or a government that created
20:12a budget of 7,500 crores, showers petal, when dead bodies are lying, people are injured,
20:20the news has not been broken, somebody has to ask questions, somebody has to justify.
20:25When a railway minister becomes a real minister, the Prime Minister's suit that was auctioned
20:29for 10 lakh rupees, that is the amount of compensation given to the murderous mismanagement
20:34that led to victims in the stampede in Delhi on Delhi railway station.
20:39So those questions will be asked.
20:41One can criticize the language and BJP can be critical on it, but their tone and tonality
20:46of that criticism is to appropriate the religion.
20:50Let me tell you that those people who believe that just gratifying people by appropriating
20:57religion is the end game of governance in India, they will be in for rude shocks because
21:04when the summer comes, they will see people battling for daily dignities of life, daily
21:09livelihood issues, things that BJP will never solve because they want to believe in their
21:14propaganda, they want to believe in this shortcut that by appropriating the religious ceremonies
21:21and the religious journeys of people as a mass, they will win in politics.
21:28My final point is the whole purpose of dumbing down people by calling out 65 crore, if you
21:34look at the census, there are 42-43 crore children in India under the age of 14, there
21:39will be at least 15 crore over the age of 65, so you are, BJP government is saying that
21:45out of 80 crore adults between 14 and 65 in India, 80 crore individuals, 65 crore have
21:51taken a dip.
21:52These numbers are being thrown out at people just to dumb down, dumb down, dumb down, dumb
21:58down, so if you look at the BJP, that's exactly what they are doing.
22:03The fact is you are saying these numbers are suspect, the possibility also is somewhere
22:09down the line Ghanshyam Tiwari that the numbers might be suspect even if it is 10 crores less,
22:14even if it is 5, you know, 15 crores less, look at the numbers, the share volume of people
22:19who have actually gone there.
22:21Okay, so what we are playing out right now is all the opposition leaders who have gone
22:25ahead, taken a dip, we are going to play this out later in just about a minute, I want to
22:29ask our, you know, our producers to put up the, you know, there was mismanagement and
22:36I want to bring in Radhika Khera on it and there was nothing wrong that the opposition
22:40did, Radhika Khera, by talking about the administrative failure which happened at multiple levels.
22:47Number one, the two stampedes that took place, number two, the stampede in Delhi that took
22:53place, the fires that were there and I would think the overarching point is the biggest
22:58administrative failure is to try and whitewash and suggest you were doing such a fabulous
23:02job when ultimately you were ill-equipped to deal with the numbers.
23:05So let's say there were 64 crore people, there were only 12 crores at the Kumbh Trimbakeshwar
23:11that took place in 2013 and we were clearly ill-equipped but we wanted to make it seem
23:16that we had it all under control.
23:18That is something that will stay in days to come as well.
23:20Har Har Mahadev, Sabhi ko Mahashivratri ki bahut bahut shukkam hai.
23:25And before I answer your question, I would like to put this forward in front of the audience
23:28that this Mahakumbh will be remembered as the grandest spiritual gathering in human
23:32history.
23:33A testament to India's eternal Sanatan Dhan where over 64 crore devotees which is almost
23:39equivalent to the population of Europe which is about 70 odd crores have showcased not
23:44just faith and devotion but also India's unmatched organizational capability of Yogi
23:49Adityanathji under Prime Minister Shri Narendra Modi ji's leadership.
23:53This Kumbh will also be remembered, Preeti, for how it has exposed the hypocrisy of those
23:58who pretend to respect Hindu traditions only for votes.
24:01The Congress which has ridiculed Sanatan at every step, they couldn't resist mocking the
24:06Kumbh.
24:07We remember what Malik Arjun Kharge, the National President of the Congress Party, he insulted
24:11all these, each and every member person of the 65 crore people who took a holy dip by
24:19calling it a BJP event and saying isse gareebi doon nahi hogi, toh ab I am waiting for an
24:23answer to know when the Deputy Chief Minister of Karnataka or the Chief Minister of Himachal,
24:28his own Congress leaders like Abhishek Manu Singh or Sachin Pilot go and take a dip, katni
24:34poverty doorkari, really waiting and this also will always remind each and every Sanatan
24:41Dharam follower that Rahul Gandhi who is a Janayudhari Hindu, a great Shivbhakt, he was
24:48missing with his family from home.
24:50Having said that, I would also like to remind everyone, crores gathered yet not a single
24:55devotee was caught spitting into someone's food or drink or offering food full of spit.
25:00No hate slogans, no calls for violence, no insults against any faith.
25:05Let me complete, let me complete.
25:07Radhika Khera, I want to come back to that.
25:09One second ma'am, allow me a counter, I am the anchor, no, allow me a counter.
25:13I just want to know, I just want to know what are you trying to insinuate when you say nobody
25:18was caught in spitting somebody's food?
25:20Yeah, I will tell you.
25:21Why would you, why would you make that comment?
25:24Why should I not?
25:25I am asking you, I am asking you.
25:27Let me complete, let me complete.
25:29What do you mean by that?
25:30Is it insinuation?
25:31What are you trying to say?
25:32When you let me complete, you will know.
25:34Like I said, no hate slogans, no call for violence, not a single person raised genocidal
25:38slogans against another religion.
25:40No one claimed that any other religious property was theirs, no separate ghats for anyone from
25:46different ghats.
25:47The Dalits, the Brahmins, the Jats, the Agarwals, everyone bathed together in the same sacred
25:51water.
25:52Everyone who has been talking about.
25:53Ma'am, what do you mean?
25:54I'll come back.
25:55You know what?
25:56Stay with that thought.
25:57I'll give you some time to think about it and I'll circle back to it.
25:58What do you mean nobody was caught in spitting in somebody's food?
25:59I'll come back to that.
26:00Ma'am, allow me to open up the debate.
26:01I'll come back to that.
26:02I'll circle back to it.
26:03I want to bring in the Congress spokesperson in all of this because there was a point that
26:09Radhika Khera raised and it's a pertinent point, Pooja Tripathi.
26:14And the reason why is because the BJP constantly raises a point that you're opportunists when
26:20it comes down to the Hindu faith.
26:22You become Chunavi Hindus.
26:24The fact, Pooja Tripathi, is that maybe now, but that wasn't the position that the Congress
26:29has taken forever.
26:30If you remember when the Britishers had banned the Kumbh, it was Pandit Nehru who went and
26:36took a dip there.
26:37I'll play out the entire chronology on how the Congress has been associated with the
26:43Kumbh, right from the time of 1954 when Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru publicly took a bath at the
26:49Kumbh where Indira Gandhi, we're going to play our graphics out for that, where Indira
26:54Gandhi visited Allahabad, where Sonia Gandhi in 2001 went to Allahabad Kumbh, all of that
27:01has happened.
27:02You can also play out visuals, Pooja Tripathi, of a Priyanka Gandhi who till very recently
27:07in 2023 was seen doing the Narmada Aarti.
27:12So clearly your top brass are practicing Hindus.
27:16In politics, optics matter.
27:18Why is it that the Gandhi's haven't gone and taken a dip?
27:21Why distance yourself from something which is clearly connected and being displayed by
27:26crores of Hindus in this country?
27:29Preeti, let me open up by saying that, you know, massive respect to the people who turned
27:35out in large numbers, 64 crores, if the 65 crore number is correct, they turned out in
27:40large numbers for the celebration of religion, celebration of spirituality, they transcended
27:45physical discomfort and they didn't complain.
27:49But I really like the topic of the debate.
27:51When you ask why our leaders, maybe they didn't want to get into this thing of VIP and non-VIP
27:58ghats and not add to the woes of the common people.
28:01If you say this, if having a dip in the Kumbh, today Rahul Gandhi is at Umkareshpur in Ujjain
28:08celebrating Mahashivratri and they have been practicing Hindu, I'm a practicing Hindu,
28:13everybody's practicing Hindu and every, each one of our leader that went there, went in
28:17their personal capacity and everybody's free to profess, practice and propagate their religion
28:21and that, and nobody, nobody should be able to give us the certificates of Sanatan or
28:26Hindu just because as we'll see in 2013 Narendra Modi ji didn't go to the Kumbh or 2025 Mohan
28:32Bhagwatji didn't go to the Kumbh.
28:34We are not raising this question, so I think this, this is a very irrelevant question to
28:38raise.
28:39We are Hindus and we are proud of our shared culture and we, we, we will practice it and
28:43we don't want certificates of Hinduism from Bharatiya Jagat Party.
28:47Having said that, we are…
28:48Okay, I'm going to, I'm going to, I need to get into a break but we're going to let
28:52Nick go who's been very sitting patiently and listening to all of us but Nick, you're
28:57writing a book now on the Prayag Raj Kumbh.
29:01What is your biggest takeaway that you're going to put in there other than of course
29:05faith, spirituality, the pull, the draw of the Kumbh, what?
29:10Prayag Raj is the forgotten heart of India.
29:16Over thousands of years, power has projected itself at the Sangam.
29:23We're having a discussion about politics and power right now.
29:24That is entirely within the historical tradition.
29:28We've had Akbar building a fort, we had Jahangir declaring independence, we had the British
29:32signing the Treaty of Allahabad at the Akbar fort, we had the British reading Victoria's
29:36Propagation ending East India Company, beginning British Raj.
29:39You mentioned the first Prime Minister, Jawaharlal Nehru, 1954, but also the first president
29:45Rajendra Prasad, three years as a cult vase.
29:49You can go back to Harsh Vardhan in the seventh century.
29:52So historically, power but also agriculture, also spirituality, the history of the Sangam,
30:01of the Doab is absolutely the heart of India.
30:03All right, before I let you go, one quick question.
30:06You know, what's, as per you, how is India looked at now abroad, in the Europe, in the
30:14United Kingdom?
30:16I think there is...
30:18Is there talk of the coming?
30:20Of course there is, but there's this, I mean, I think there's disbelief that it's possible
30:24to even organize something on this scale.
30:26So on the one hand, it's extraordinary, the devotion of people that are willing to attend
30:31an event like this, but also it's extraordinary how it's able to be organized.
30:35Okay.
30:36All right, Nick, appreciate guests, but the visuals there on your television screen of
30:42all the opposition leaders that took a dip this time.
30:46Some of them missing, conspicuous by their absence.
30:49I want to go back to Ashutosh, one of our panelists.
30:53Ashutosh, some of the questions that will be raised, you know, which we did touch upon
30:57earlier, is how the opposition dealt with some things that were very clear, mismanagement,
31:05number one, administratively ill-equipped, number two, all of that aside, when you look
31:10at it, Ashutosh, there's political messaging, there are optics.
31:15Others who criticized the mismanagement still went ahead and took that dip because they
31:20understood that that kind of optics is important for political messaging.
31:25Some didn't.
31:26See, Preeti, I'm really opposed to a certain kind of attempt to convert Kumbh art to Hindu
31:34religion, a kind of religion.
31:36See, the Hindu religion is such a virat religion that it allows you to many, many interpretations.
31:45I take it from a different angle altogether.
31:50Look at, if you read Dayanand Saraswati, his understanding of religion is altogether very,
31:54very different.
31:55He didn't believe in the ritualism of religion.
31:57If the religion is reduced to only a festival of rituals, then what about the Gyan Marg,
32:03which talks about, which has been talked in Vedas and in the Prishad, which really takes
32:08you to an internal journey, which is really a spiritual journey.
32:11If I do not take a dip in Kumbh, that means I'm not a Hindu or somebody who has taken
32:16a dip, he's a better Hindu.
32:18If that is what we have reduced our religion is, then I'm sorry to say this.
32:22What about Kabir?
32:23Kabir says,
32:24In his last days, he said, I will not die in Banaras because the saying is, anybody
32:32who's dying in Banaras, go to Swarga.
32:33He went, I'm going to Magar.
32:35He went to Magar.
32:36So will you call Kabir a lesser Hindu or a bigger Hindu?
32:39So I'm only trying to tell you is that today, if Babasaheb Ambedkar has been here, if Dayanand
32:46Saraswati has been here, Mahatma Gandhi has been here, we all would have branded him as
32:51anti-Hindu because his understanding of Hindus are very different.
32:55Look at Malik Arjun Khatke, who is Malik Arjun Khatke?
32:59Malik Arjun Khatke is a Dalit.
33:01Lallu Prasad Yadav is an OPC, Akhilesh Yadav is an OPC.
33:04Their understanding of Hindu religion, their understanding of Kumbh can be entirely different.
33:10So why we just want to reduce Hindu religion to a kind of a religion, and that is what
33:14the BJP is trying.
33:15And that is my objective.
33:16But Ashutosh, you know, I'm going to come back to you, and maybe you can touch upon
33:18it later.
33:20Because at one end, yes, you're right.
33:22But flip it around, Ashutosh.
33:24Because for example, the Gandhis, if you look at lineage-wise, right from Pandit Nehru,
33:30they have been associated with the Kumbh.
33:32And right from 1954, actually even before that, and then suddenly you see a distance
33:37where it comes down to the Kumbh.
33:40And I'm only talking about the Kumbh.
33:41And you proclaim to be believers, you proclaim to be practicing Hindus.
33:46So isn't political message so very important right now, Ashutosh?
33:50I'll come back to you.
33:51I'll circle back on that point.
33:52Can I respond?
33:53You know, I'll come back to you.
33:55But Karan Verma, why is it every time that, you know, the nuance of being Hindu is one
34:02whitewash that if you say anything, if Mr. Khatke says something else, is contrived as
34:07anti-Hindu?
34:08If a Mamata Banerjee, who might not have got her language right, but the BJP, because she
34:13intended to only speak of the mismanagement, the deaths that took place, therefore she
34:18called it Mrityu Kumbh.
34:20But it's immediately turned around and being labelled someone who's only preaching to her
34:24core constituency.
34:25So, Preeti, no one has said that if you don't go to the Kumbh, you are a lesser Hindu.
34:30Nobody has used this language.
34:32But what is, you know, what has rattled the opposition, I would say, and especially Lalu
34:36Prasad Yadav and Akhilesh Yadav is, they cannot stomach the fact that the Kumbh is
34:41a symbol of Sanatan unity.
34:43Nobody is seeing anyone's caste and their entire politics is predicated on caste divisions.
34:48Whether it's PDA, whether it is Agda Pichada, they cannot stomach the fact that this unity
34:53is actually spelling doom for their politics.
34:56So it's they who are trying to politicise it.
34:59It's they who can't stomach this unity.
35:01And it's them who are trying to politicise it.
35:03I am absolutely fine with anyone raising questions on whether certain things could
35:08have been better from an administrative point of view.
35:10But why criticise the Kumbh?
35:12And for Ashutoshji, you know, Ashutoshji, the beauty of our faith is that ekam sat viprah
35:16bahudha vadanti.
35:17You can arrive at it from different ways.
35:19The word Kumbh comes from Rig Veda, so of course, it is a Sanatan virasat.
35:23It also comes from our Puranas.
35:24It also has an astronomical connotation to it.
35:26So we are all welcome to, you know, analyse it in the way we want.
35:30Who has said that, you know, somebody is a lesser Hindu if they don't go to the Kumbh
35:33or if they view it differently?
35:35That's fine.
35:36That's welcome.
35:37That's the beauty of our diversity.
35:38Okay, that's the beauty of our diversity.
35:41But you know, Gansham Tiwari, I'll come back to the same question that Ashutosh raised
35:46that certain political leaders can have a very different understanding of the Kumbh.
35:50But your political leader of your party is also an OBC, Gansham Tiwari.
35:55He has been on the front foot, constantly calling out the mismanagement, the administrative
36:01failure.
36:02But he also made sure that he went there, he took that dip and those visuals were not
36:07shared privately.
36:08Samajwadi party media team was the first to put out those visuals.
36:12So you really spoke to a constituency and saying that I'm a believer, I am doing this
36:17because this is important to me and BJP is not the sole custodian of the Hindu faith,
36:22which possibly your allies are not getting.
36:31You're on mute Gansham.
36:34It reverts back to the title that what the Kumbh will be remembered for.
36:39One bizarre story it will always be remembered for was when dead bodies were lying there,
36:44a government has not had not announced the tragedy that has happened, that government
36:48has still not announced the number of deaths properly, that they were showering petals.
36:53This is the BJP that we are dealing with.
36:55A BJP that will run its propaganda, numb you down with numbers.
37:00So as far as Akhilesh Yadav is concerned, he is not in the daily habit of passing the
37:05BJP's test of being a Sanatani or not being a Sanatani.
37:08The day Yogi Adityanath used Gangajal to wash the CM's residence after Akhilesh Yadav had
37:15vacated, Akhilesh Yadav had already failed Yogi Adityanath's fake test of Sanatani.
37:21That's not the issue.
37:22Issue is don't give them easy wins.
37:24They are a party that will run propaganda.
37:26They will shower petals on dead bodies to make you believe that everything is fine.
37:30So Gansham Tiwari, are you of the opinion that your allies are giving the BJP an easy
37:36win, especially when it comes down to be labeled as the custodians of Hindutva?
37:41No, I think living by their daily certificates of whether you are Hindu or not, whether you
37:45are nationalist or not, that giving them that right itself is an easy win.
37:51So I think it is important that every political party wears their value on their sleeves and
37:56at the same time aggressively takes on BJP and does not forget that you are facing a
38:02party that will shower dead...
38:03Fair point.
38:04Gansham Tiwari, that, you know, it's a point which seems to be lost on some of your allies
38:08to wear your faith on your sleeve, but yet call out what you think is right.
38:14I want to cut across back to the BJP spokesperson who is still with us right now, Radhika Khera.
38:19Radhika Khera, one, you know, because it's disconcerting when you say that at least nobody
38:24spat in it.
38:26So would you like to clarify what you said?
38:27No, why should I clarify?
38:28What were you insinuating, number one?
38:29No, no.
38:30You have a question out.
38:31You'll have ample time to speak.
38:32You know, I'm just saying it's disconcerting to use words like at least nobody spat.
38:39I'm just asking, what do you mean by that?
38:40What was the insinuation?
38:41Number one.
38:42Number two, Radhika Khera, the fact is because, and I'll ask that question again, because
38:45you didn't answer it the last time around, just because somebody raises questions on
38:49what is wrong with the governance, administration, management of an event doesn't make them against
38:56the event.
38:57A, I spoke in very simple English and what I said is what I meant.
39:03And that is a fact that this is a gathering of over 60 crore people over there and none
39:10of this happened.
39:11That has been happening.
39:12That has been done again and again by everyone that nobody says a word about it.
39:16Nobody has ever gone on to criticize this.
39:20They come up with things.
39:21So I will state facts.
39:22A fact is a fact that that did not happen.
39:24So I will raise that and I stand by my words.
39:26I have not said anything wrong.
39:28Saying the truth is not anything wrong.
39:30Having said that, coming back to what happened, the stampede, the deaths that happened, they
39:34were very unfortunate incidents.
39:36They should not have happened.
39:37But we managed to control them in a population of 60 crore and 60 crore people, a crore people
39:43are coming in every day, having to manage crowds.
39:46I'm sorry, I beg to differ when you say that we have failed in providing organization or
39:53making it a better place.
39:54Over 65 crore, nowhere in the world has such a gathering ever happened and yet we managed
39:58to make it go by the way it did.
40:00And you had even someone who does not belong to the country who was writing a book.
40:04He was right here telling you what exactly he could manage to take his daughter, his
40:08children, his wife over there.
40:11So that just shows how easy it was.
40:13And every time your correspondent has gone to someone over there, all of them have said,
40:19yes, it is fine.
40:20We have to go.
40:21When we go, we have to do penance on any religious body.
40:23And what surprises me even more is that everybody is raising questions, has anyone ever had
40:29the guts to ask or question the stampede at Hajj?
40:32There were many Indians who died over there.
40:34Did anyone from the opposition raise a question?
40:37No one raised a question.
40:38No one ever raises a question on anything.
40:40But yet when anything related to Sanatan Dharm happens, and when you're talking about, we
40:44don't say, we didn't say Rahul Gandhi is a Brahmin.
40:48We never said he's a Shiv Bhakt.
40:49And Ashutoshji was saying that we are raising questions, sir.
40:52I'm running out of time and I want to get all of you back in for 30 seconds, but Pooja
40:57Tripathi wants to respond to you.
40:58Go ahead, Pooja Tripathi, then I'm going to take a quick round up.
41:01Sanatan, for the first instance, teaches you humility and when you come on national television
41:07and say nobody spat on somebody, I think it just, it just dilutes the very essence of
41:12the biggest religious gathering that you're talking about.
41:15This is a very violent, toxic statement to make on national television.
41:18Karan was just saying nobody's labelling you Hindu or anti-Hindu.
41:22Acharya Dhirendra Shastri said,
41:23Jo kumbh nahi kai, wo desh drohiyan.
41:25Prime Minister Modi was sharing stays.
41:27Swami Aved Bhukteswaranand Saraswati.
41:29They've gone and labelled him as anti-Hindu.
41:32Swami Mithilesh Nandini Dhar from Ayodhya, you labelled him as anti-Hindu.
41:35When the Akhadas were suspending their Shani Snaan, there was Pushpa Varsha that was going
41:41on just when the numbers of the casualty were even not out.
41:44We are talking about the political messaging, the giddh, the soor, Sanatan Virodhi bas utsav
41:50karte rahe hain.
41:51Okay, I want to go back to all of you, but you know, Pooja, you know, one big question
41:57which your own ally raised, wear your faith on your sleeve.
41:59It's important because you're a political outfit, along with all the other communities
42:03that you cater to, even though, you know, you want to cast censors, but ultimately that
42:08monolith called Hindu, you also cater to that.
42:12And Ghanshyam Tiwari had a big point in, you know, in that, but 20 seconds each Ashutosh
42:17I'll begin with you.
42:19What do you think this Kumbh will be remembered for?
42:24See I think it's sad that the Kumbh has been remembered for the politics which has come
42:28around it.
42:29The time has come and we all Hindus have to understand there is no one kind of a Hindu
42:34religion per se.
42:35Narayan Guru's understanding of Hindu religion is very different, Periyar's understanding
42:39of Hindu religion is very different, Tamilian understanding of Hinduism is very different
42:43and Bengal's understanding of Hinduism is very, very, very, very different.
42:46So this attempt to thrust an upper caste understanding of Hinduism on the entire Hindu population
42:52is something which I am really opposed to.
42:55We have to understand there is a Dalit understanding of Hinduism, there is an OBC understanding
42:58of Hinduism.
42:59Karan Varma, would you want to, you know, I want to quickly cut across to Karan Varma.
43:04Same question Karan Varma, how will we remember this Kumbh?
43:07This Kumbh should be remembered as a jewel in our shining crown of achievements.
43:12Just as our nationalistic fervor comes to the fore when we win a World Cup or an Olympic
43:16medal, this should be right up there and we deserve to pat ourselves on the back because
43:21we've pulled off something that no one could have thought of.
43:2465 crore people, we don't need lessons from event management gurus in Harvard or Stanford.
43:29In fact, we are the ones who can give them lessons and we must take pride with that.
43:34Ram Tiwari, 20 seconds, same question sir, each one of you.
43:38We are a spiritual country where the spirit of Hindu philosophy is visible at Kumbh.
43:43The faith in the philosophy as well as the determination of people that even if the government
43:48does not make proper arrangements, even if the trains are overcrowded, even if they have
43:52to walk kilometers, they will go.
43:55But it will also be remembered for a dishonest government who wants to appropriate this faith
44:00because they don't want to give the same citizens the benefits of Hinduism.
44:03Radhika Khaira.
44:04This Kumbh will be remembered that Sanatan stands tall, unshaken and eternal.
44:11This is the real essence of Sanatan Dhan, peaceful, inclusive and eternal.
44:15And no amount of mockery, no amount of propaganda or political opportunism can ever diminish
44:20its strength.
44:21As much as people may like to build their politics on the foundation of Hindu hatred,
44:25they will all crumble.
44:26And Sanatan Dhan will stand tall.
44:27Pooja Tripathi, 20 seconds ma'am, please go ahead.
44:30I think this Kumbh will be remembered for the unmatched power of spirituality by the
44:34common people.
44:35But this Kumbh will also be remembered Preeti for the lack of accountability and running
44:39away from accountability and turning the aam aadmi casualty into sterile numbers.
44:43This is what I have taken part in.
44:46All right.
44:47You know what I'm going to do is I've run out of time.
44:49That's it.
44:50Thank you all our guests for joining us.
44:51We're going to leave you with the slew of celebrities that also came to the Kumbh.
44:57There were quite a few influencers.
44:59One of them, of course, became a celebrity, which was Bona Lisa, a woman who was selling
45:04trinkets just for her sheer beauty.
45:06She caught the world's imagination, whoever came there.
45:10But other than that, all the stars coming in for the Kumbh.
45:13Leaving you with that, where you stand and what the Kumbh will be remembered for, we
45:16leave it to you.