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Enjoy this blast from the past from the EarthX Archives. 'Round the Fire was one of the first shows we produced and aired back in 2020. EarthX Media has grown a lot since then, but we still like to look back on these insightful conversations and see how far we've come.
Fishing has never been stronger! Three experts discuss why so many more people are casting their rods, post pandemic!
About 'Round the Fire:
Hunters and anglers sit around the (virtual) campfire to discuss conservation and environmental issues from the unique perspective of outdoorsmen. Sportsmen and women can be important allies in America's ongoing efforts to protect its landscapes.
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Enjoy this blast from the past from the EarthX Archives. 'Round the Fire was one of the first shows we produced and aired back in 2020. EarthX Media has grown a lot since then, but we still like to look back on these insightful conversations and see how far we've come.
Fishing has never been stronger! Three experts discuss why so many more people are casting their rods, post pandemic!
About 'Round the Fire:
Hunters and anglers sit around the (virtual) campfire to discuss conservation and environmental issues from the unique perspective of outdoorsmen. Sportsmen and women can be important allies in America's ongoing efforts to protect its landscapes.
EarthX & EarthXtra
Love Our Planet.
The Official Network of Earth Day.
About Us:
At EarthX, we believe our planet is a pretty special place. The people, landscapes, and critters are likely unique to the entire universe, so we consider ourselves lucky to be here. We are committed to protecting the environment by inspiring conservation and sustainability, and our programming along with our range of expert hosts support this mission. We’re glad you’re with us.
EarthX is a media company dedicated to inspiring people to care about the planet. We take an omni channel approach to reach audiences of every age through its robust 24/7 linear channel distributed across cable and FAST outlets, along with dynamic, solution oriented short form content on social and digital platforms. EarthX is home to original series, documentaries and snackable content that offer sustainable solutions to environmental challenges. EarthX is the only network that delivers entertaining and inspiring topics that impact and inspire our lives on climate and sustainability.
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TVTranscript
00:00This is Kirk Dieter with Round the Fire and I'm joined today by two of my good friends
00:20John Gerak who is a preeminent author in the world of fly fishing and Bob White who is
00:27also an all around outdoors man and great artist in many media and they work together
00:34on a column that we produce for Trout Magazine and I'm the editor of Trout Magazine and get
00:39to work with these guys all the time but I'm also a fan, I've been a long time reader of
00:44John's and look at Bob's art and so it's fun to get around the fire and talk about these
00:53things and talk about the art in fishing and want to kick it off by asking you guys,
00:59we're kind of in a moment now with all that's transpired in the last several months there's
01:03been a real influx of people to the outdoors and open spaces and so forth and have you
01:09seen that where you are and don't you kind of think this is something that's going to
01:14define fly fishing for a time to come?
01:16I think there are more people fishing now than ever.
01:20Yeah, I've noticed that and I think it's the pandemic shut down, it's a safe wholesome
01:31thing you can do outside and I just think a lot of people, I know Colorado has sold
01:37something like 40% more fishing licenses this year than last and it seems like those extra
01:4440% are exactly where I want to fish.
01:48That's right, how about you Bob, catching some of that too?
01:53First of all, we should tell everybody where we are, I'm in Steamboat Springs, Colorado,
01:58John you're in?
01:59I'm in Larimer County, Colorado.
02:02And I'm in Marine on St. Croix, Minnesota.
02:08So yeah, a lot of my friends have been hitting the water pretty hard and I've been busy here
02:14in the studio but they always send me photographs from the stream to kind of dig in it, you
02:20know, twist the knife a little bit.
02:23So let's talk a little bit about working together, how long have you guys worked together on
02:29columns and collaborations?
02:31I think it's been about 30 years, hasn't it Bob?
02:35Yeah, I think that's about right.
02:37I mean it's long enough that I can't remember how long it's been.
02:42I don't think our beards were quite as gray when we started.
02:45You're right.
02:46I shaved my head this morning just for you guys, just so I would look the clean shaving
02:50part.
02:51Yeah, yeah.
02:52What's the process?
02:53I blamed my beard on Bob.
02:57What's the process?
02:58Do you write kind of your thing John and then show Bob and Bob you kind of illustrate or
03:04are you working in completely different tangents and kind of match up a piece that you've been
03:09painting Bob to something that fits with John or I mean how does that all work typically?
03:16Well from my perspective, I write the stories, I send them to Bob and when they come out
03:26in the magazine there's a beautiful painting next to them, that's all I know.
03:32And Bob, you read the whole story front to back and then what triggers what you do?
03:39Well, first of all, I'm like the first person in the country who gets to read the new column.
03:46So that's pretty cool.
03:49Basically I read the column and then I try to distill an image from John's column that
03:58you know that speaks to the story.
04:04John writes very visually so that's really easy for me to do.
04:10Sometimes it's a fish being released, sometimes it's a little stream in the dripless.
04:20I try to encapsulate the meaning of the story into an image.
04:27Do you ever suggest anything to each other in terms of your respective works?
04:33Have you ever in 30 years Bob said, John you might want to change this word or John?
04:38Have you ever said, have you ever in 30 years said, Bob I'm not sure I like the exact color
04:44that you use here or anything like that?
04:48I've never done anything like that.
04:51Bob may have wished I'd changed the word here or there but he's never said anything.
04:59There have been a couple of times where I'll read the column and I'll think to myself,
05:03oh finally I get to do a painting of a muskie.
05:08But no, I've never asked for anything or suggested anything to John.
05:12It's always just fun to do.
05:16I do send Bob drafts that maybe aren't exactly the finished draft that the editor gets, that
05:25you get Kirby.
05:27But I wait until, I send him a draft where I'm not going to change anything fundamental.
05:33I might go back and redraft a sentence or a paragraph here or there to make it clearer
05:40what I was trying to say.
05:41But the sense of the story is always there.
05:44And then it comes to Aaron Block and Samantha Carmichael and myself and we barely touch
05:49it at all.
05:50We just put it in the magazine.
05:51Well you mentioned to me one time you go through and take out all the F-bombs in my stories.
05:56I do.
05:57I have to do that.
05:58It's a family publication.
05:59Yeah.
06:00Well after you said that, I've been doing it myself.
06:05It never occurred to me.
06:08Well it's kind of like an Easter egg hunt every issue I would say.
06:11Where is it this time?
06:12So anyway, it's all good.
06:16I have another question.
06:18You guys have fished and been to a lot of places and seen a lot of things and I've been
06:23lucky enough to do the same in my career in writing and so forth.
06:28One of the things that people ask me, I always reminisce about the good old days or when
06:31it was like here.
06:32You know, oh you should have seen it here when this hatch was happening or the fish
06:37were so and so and blah blah blah.
06:39Is there any place that you could call out now that it's as good or better than it's
06:44ever been?
06:46Without giving away secrets or a roadmap for people to go crowd your spot.
06:49But I'm saying, is there a place that you think, you know it's actually better now than
06:54it ever has been?
06:56The place that I've been going to Labrador for 20 or 30 years, it's as good as it's ever
07:03been.
07:04The last time I was there, it was just as good as it's ever been.
07:08I'd have to say the same about the area in Alaska that I've guided and fished into.
07:13I think it's fishing as good now as it ever has.
07:18Which is great.
07:20There's so many conservation challenges that we face.
07:23And it seems like the lower in the lower 48, the more severe they are.
07:27We've had a tough summer here in Colorado, for example, with drought and fire and so
07:32on and so forth.
07:33But it's also good to look at the glass half full where it is.
07:37And some places in the fishing world are, because of the attention that people have
07:42paid to conservation and putting back into the sport and so forth, things are able to
07:48transcend and move along and be better.
07:52So I just wanted to confirm that.
07:53That was a loaded question.
07:54I didn't know what your answer would be.
07:56Yeah, I thought it was a 50-50 chance that you would both say, uh, no.
08:02Well it's, I have to say there aren't a whole lot of those places that I'm aware of, but
08:08there are a few.
08:10Yeah.
08:11And my goal, I guess, and some of the stuff we do with TU and Trout Unlimited is to try
08:16to make more of those places.
08:18You know, that's the end of the day.
08:19Yeah.
08:20Well, one of the things they've done in Labrador is the day that place opened, it was catch
08:24a release on a brook trout.
08:26And I've been to other places up there where, um, if you look at the guides, the guides
08:34log, there's the, there's the log in the, in the lodge, that's the clients.
08:40And then there's the guides log, which is actually true.
08:45I've, I've seen at, um, well, I won't mention the lodge, but you, you see the average numbers
08:51of big trout go down over 30 years because people, people were able to keep them, keep
09:01some.
09:02So in regard to your respective arts, John, I can't help but notice you've got a massive
09:08library behind you.
09:10You know, I'm going to ask you this similar question, um, you know, what is the closest
09:16book?
09:17What are you reading right now?
09:18And Bob, if I were to look in your house, what are you, what's hanging on your wall?
09:22What art hangs on your wall?
09:24Uh, right now I'm rereading, uh, Tom McGuane's An Outside Chance, which is, um, you know,
09:33essays on sport and not just fishing there's, there's hunting and motocross and all kinds
09:39of stuff in there.
09:41It's an old book and, um, I, I, I enjoy going back to, to read old books because you, um,
09:49you always, you bring more to it as you get older and, and, and as you get older, you
09:57don't remember it as clearly as you thought you did either.
09:59So it was always, always surprises you forgot about.
10:03Yeah.
10:04How about, how about you, Bob?
10:08Oh boy.
10:09Um, I've got, I've got some work of, of friends, uh, hanging in the house, but, um, typically,
10:18um, I just, I decorate the house with my, with my favorite work, paintings of mine that,
10:25that I don't necessarily, um, care to sell.
10:29Uh, I've, there've been a few times where I've taken a painting off the wall in the
10:33living room because somebody purchased it and, uh, had to replace it with something
10:38for, for Tommy, if she has favorite paintings.
10:41Um, and there are, uh, there are a number of paintings that, um, I've been instructed
10:45by Lisa that they're not for sale.
10:48Uh, so I'll finish a painting and she'll kind of walk over and take it away.
10:54Yeah.
10:55Occasionally.
10:56You can, you can always tell the paintings Bob wants to keep because of the price tags.
11:02That's right.
11:03That's right.
11:05That's right.
11:06You, one time you have to literally make them an offer you can't refuse, right?
11:10Exactly.
11:11There are a few of those.
11:12Yeah.
11:13That's great.
11:14Give me a sneak preview, if you will, of what's coming down the pike, what are you guys working
11:20on?
11:21How far out, how far out do you typically work?
11:22I know you've already given me your next column and you probably already well into spring
11:27or whatever, but what are some of the things that you guys are noodling around with?
11:33Right now I'm working on, I, for, for trout, I try to work, um, at least three quarterly
11:43columns out.
11:45So Bob has plenty of time to, to do the paintings cause I don't, I don't like to rush Bob and
11:51Bob doesn't like being rushed, although he's, he's, he's capable of being rushed.
11:57Um, he, he illustrated a story I did for gray sporting journal once and, uh, sent a digital
12:05copy of the painting while the, the, the paint was still wet, but, um, but I don't think
12:12he likes doing that any more than I do.
12:15I think he likes having the time.
12:17So I went pretty far out on that.
12:20And right now I'm working on a story, uh, gray sporting journal is, um, coming out with
12:28a 50th anniversary issue and, uh, Jim Babb has come out of retirement to edit it.
12:35And he asked me to do a story for them.
12:38So I'm he, you know, it was one of bad sort of famous for open-ended assignments.
12:46You want something ruminative fly Fisherly and ruminative, he said, which is gives me
12:54a lot of room.
12:56Jim Babb is one of my favorite writers and, and, uh, I had a chance to go on a trip to
13:00Chile with him many years ago and, but he's also been really influential in terms of editing.
13:08And as I've kind of changed my role from writing at field and stream magazine to editing at
13:15trout and angling trade and some of that, it's a different thing.
13:18It's like, uh, changing from playing lead violin to conducting the orchestra, you know,
13:22and Jim was, is like, I think that one of the best conductors ever anywhere in the world
13:31of, of writing period, but also specifically fly fishing.
13:36So he's, um, my favorite story about him is he ran a story of mine once in the magazine.
13:46And I, I thought, well, that's nice.
13:48He didn't change a word of it.
13:51And then just out of curiosity, I went back and looked at my copy and he had changed a
13:55couple of words, but his changes were better than mine.
14:01And it's still read exactly.
14:03It was all in my voice, still read exactly the way I wrote it, except a few little things
14:07were just clearer, a little more succinct.
14:12And I figure if he can fool the author, he's a pretty good editor.
14:16No doubt.
14:17No doubt.
14:18No doubt.
14:19Bob, I didn't mean to cut you off there with the sidetrack on Jim is, is what we see behind
14:24you, what you're working on now, or is that, uh, this is, uh, this is a painting for John's
14:30story about fishing in the Driftless.
14:34So I think that one's due out shortly.
14:39The one I'm working on right now is, is a little, a lot of fun for me.
14:43You know, I try to change things up.
14:46So I'm not always painting John fishing a river or paint a painting of a fish.
14:53And one of John's columns coming up is about fishing in Alaska.
14:58And I really love painting aerial landscapes of Alaska, you know, what you see from the
15:04plane when you're coming over the mountains.
15:07And so I'm going to be working on that aerial, aerial landscape here in the, over the next
15:12couple of weeks.
15:13And it's gonna be a lot of fun.
15:16Cool.
15:17So I would be a bad editor and a bad friend if I didn't give you both a little time to
15:22talk about your respective books that are out.
15:26John, you've got many, many books, but your most recent one is Dumb Luck and the Kindness
15:30of Strangers, which I think is a, you know, not only holds the, the lineup, it's, it,
15:38I, it's one, actually one of my favorites.
15:40I gotta be honest with you.
15:41I think you might be peaking, John.
15:45And then, and then Bob, I just got this.
15:51And it's the classic sporting art of Bob White, which is the, I believe the greatest
15:56coffee table book of all time.
15:57And I was really especially lucky because the fly that I got to choose was a Hexagenia
16:03that was tied by you, John Gierak.
16:06So it all comes together and here we are on TV talking about this stuff.
16:10But tell me a little bit, I'll start with you, Bob, tell me a little bit about this
16:14book and, and, you know, the genesis of it.
16:17And you know, you've been working a long, long time, but how did you decide to, what
16:23do you include and what you didn't and the balance and all that stuff?
16:26Well, I always, I always, well, I grew up surrounded by books of sporting art, Ogden
16:33Pleisner, Frank Schoonover, you know, all the classics and always dreamt that one day
16:40I'd be able to, you know, do my own book.
16:45And probably wouldn't have come to fruition if John hadn't encouraged me.
16:50And I wouldn't, I wouldn't say badgered me, but he, he, he, he was pretty insistent that
16:56I, that I go that route and, and introduced me to some people in the industry that helped
17:02me and helped Lisa and I put together a proposal and I'd never done anything like that.
17:07It was really sort of overwhelming.
17:11How did I decide which pieces to put in?
17:13It was, I just kind of picked my favorites and I wish now I'd included a few older pieces,
17:21but I think, you know, as you grow in any profession, you hopefully are getting better.
17:26And so there are some older pieces, but there are some that I probably should have included
17:34that I didn't, but that's the next book.
17:38There's always a sequel, right?
17:41You bet.
17:43And John, the latest, I mean, I just wonder how, how the, how the well is always so deep
17:50for you as a writer.
17:51It's a, it's one of the things that I marvel at when I read your stories.
17:56So well, you know, as you get older, the well gets deeper, right?
18:00The past gets farther away.
18:03And I think I, you know, I know, I know I repeat myself occasionally.
18:11You can't write 20 books without repeating yourself.
18:14And I don't remember everything I've ever written either.
18:18So I mean, I know stuff comes up, but I think no one's ever pointed it out.
18:24And as you know, readers are not shy about pointing things out if they think they find
18:30a mistake or whatever.
18:33And I, I think I just, I, you know, I may see the same things I've always seen, but
18:40I may see them differently with a little different perspective.
18:44And so I mean, in a way, in a way I've, I've written the same book 20 times, but it's,
18:52it's always different because I'm, I'm always a little different.
18:57Yeah.
18:58You know, you touched on something there that kind of triggered a thought for me, and that's
19:04the, it's a balance between homage to the past and respecting, you know, there's a lot
19:10of tradition in fly fishing, of course, and, but cutting a new path and looking for the
19:16future and all that stuff.
19:18And so how much do you find yourself looking over your shoulder and how much are you still,
19:23you know, you've got, you've got things, rivers to cross and places that you want to
19:27get to that you haven't been to yet?
19:30Yeah, yeah, I do.
19:33You know, I can't give you a list of specifics, but I'm nowhere near done.
19:40There's there's still plenty of places I want to go and I'm really itching to now because,
19:45you know, I'm gone anywhere this year, right?
19:48All of a sudden, you know, it's not safe to hardly safe to go out and get a cup of coffee,
19:52let alone get on an airplane, fly somewhere, right?
19:55So yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm talking with our mutual friend, Mike Dvorak, about some salmon fishing
20:05up in up in eastern Canada next year.
20:09And we just, but you know, you got to, you just got to see what happens.
20:13I know.
20:14And Bob, this is an open question for both of you, but I've spent all summer wondering
20:19where I'm going to go next.
20:20It's like a, you know, you're pent up, you're like a rocket, he's going to take off as soon
20:24as we get the green light to go someplace.
20:27Where in the world is it going to be for you, Bob White?
20:30Oh, man, it kind of depends on when the green light happens.
20:34You know, Lisa and I usually host a week in Argentina at the end of January.
20:42You know, I honestly, I don't think that's going to happen.
20:46I don't think things will be be over by then.
20:49I'm hopeful that next summer we'll be able to have a season in Alaska.
20:55So I'm looking forward to that.
20:57I don't guide full time anymore, but I host two or three weeks up there over the course
21:01of the summer and fall and it was really hard to, to miss that, you know, I kept thinking
21:07that tomorrow would be the day I would leave for this lodge or, you know, boy, I just would
21:13have come home from that lodge.
21:15So I'm hopeful about Alaska next summer.
21:18Yeah, I never got a chance to get back to my home water in Michigan this year.
21:25And I'm hoping that we can do that and do a long planned trip with you two guys to stop
21:31by and visit.
21:32It's a special place for me and yeah, I'd love to.
21:35Western part of Michigan, we can sit around the fire, like they say, and tell some stories
21:42and all that stuff too.
21:44Are there other things that I haven't covered with you guys that you think, and Dieter,
21:49you forgot to ask me this.
21:50I mean, is there anything that you want to touch on or anything that comes to mind?
21:59Not really, just that, you know, this whole coronavirus thing has really given me some,
22:07I mean, I thought when it came up, okay, look, you can write one pandemic story about what,
22:17you know, what the pandemic's doing to your fishing, and then you're going to have to
22:22be done with it.
22:24And but it didn't work out that way because it keeps coming up.
22:29It's like the weather, it's just, it's a constant, it's a thing you always have to consider.
22:36And so it's the thing that's kept me in Colorado for, this is the first time I'll have been
22:42in Colorado fishing for the whole year in probably 25 years.
22:52And so that makes you a little ruminative about, all of a sudden you're back on all
22:57your old home waters and you remember what it's like, what it was like when you were
23:0325 and 30 instead of when you're in your 70s.
23:08And then, then you start wondering about the nature of memory.
23:13Is it like, well, was the fishing better?
23:18Or was I better?
23:20Or am I remembering, am I like, like, did I have I taken a few small hard one trout
23:27and made them a bunch of big trout in my memory?
23:32And so you, you know, you have all that stuff to, to think about and write about too.
23:38Yeah.
23:39It just, I don't know, it just doesn't seem to, it doesn't seem to stop.
23:43You'd think writing on the same subject for 40 some years, you'd run out of stuff, but
23:51you just, I think this either, either the subject itself is, is bottomless or I'll just
23:59never quite get it right.
24:04And it's an awful big canvas, isn't it, Bob?
24:06It's a big canvas.
24:07Absolutely.
24:08Yeah.
24:09I think that what I've learned this summer is definitely, you know, it's been a weird
24:16year, but fishing and friends and home and home waters have been more sacred than ever
24:26before.
24:28And so it's been a real honor for me to be able to kick off my involvement with Round
24:33the Fire with two of my good friends, talking about a sport I love very, very much and sharing
24:40some stories and all that.
24:41And here's to many, many more guys.
24:44I really enjoy working with you and I hope we can keep doing it for a long, long time.
24:48I hope we can get on the river and wet a line together sometime soon too.
24:51Yeah.
24:52We got you.
24:53That would be great.
24:54Yeah.
24:55I, it's been great seeing you guys.
24:57I mean, I miss fishing with John and seeing you around, Kirk, and so this wasn't like
25:04being on the river, but it was better than, you know, staring at a canvas for half an
25:09hour.
25:10Well, it's a little bit like sitting around the fire.
25:13So that's the idea of the show and hope folks enjoy it.
25:17And I really thank you guys for being on and I look forward to talking to you again sometime.
25:21It's our pleasure.
25:22Sounds good.
25:23All right, buddy.
25:24See ya.
25:25See ya.
25:26Bye.